Amendment on sale of NHS to foreign powers voted down

JenniferEccles What do you mean when you refer to a "daft rumour"?

The Portsmouth News printed this report re the amendment:

"The vote was split across party lines, with no Conservative MPs voting for the amendment to protect the NHS from outside control in any future trade deals.

"The "nos" were made up almost entirely of Conservative MPs, with one Independent also voting the amendment down.

"All Labour MPs present voted in favour of the amendment, along with members of other political parties like the SNP and Liberal Democrats.

"As well as protecting the NHS from foreign control in any trade deal, the amendment also proposed protecting other elements of the NHS. This included:

"Ensuring that the ability to provide a “comprehensive and publicly funded health service free at the point of delivery” was not jeopardised by any trade deal

"Protecting the quality and safety of health and care services

"Regulating pricing and control of medicines

"Protecting NHS staff from having their employment terms changed, including their rights at work or pay

"Protecting patients from having their data sold off

"Protecting the NHS from investor-state dispute settlements (ISDS) clauses which would allow foreign investors to sue governments for any measures that harm their profits"

If there is no chance of any of the above happening, why would the Conservatives not vote for the amendment?

The Access Now website says this about ISDS clauses (which apparently the Australian government has refused to be subject to):

"Through ISDS, foreign investors are empowered to sue governments if changes in law affect their profits — or at least, the profits they “expected” — on a particular project. By giving companies equal standing with governments, ISDS empowers corporations to directly enforce a trade agreement, undermining the balance of power between the state and the private sector. While states are the ones negotiating and ratifying a treaty, through ISDS, companies have the ability to interpret and enforce it.

"Disputes under ISDS take place in secretive tribunals with no institutional independence, enabling corporations to skirt domestic courts. Specifically, most of the disputes brought under ISDS are heard in the World Bank’s International Center for Settlement of Investment Disputes (ICSID) or the United Nations Commission on International Trade Law (UNCITRAL). Both international arbitration bodies dedicated to only hearing ISDS complaints operate with similar rules and procedures which exclude the public and do not allow human rights or consumer advocates to intervene. Disputes are heard and interpreted by three private sector attorneys designated as arbitrators. The nomination of arbitrators by both parties involved in a claim result in a lack independence and impartiality as arbitrators tend to focus more on pleasing the nominating parties in order to ensure that they are re-appointed in future cases. This situation has lead to a growth in the number of challenges to arbitrators, as they have been often perceived as “biased or predisposed.”

JenniferEccles

Oh dear. Is this daft rumour still doing the rounds?

Does anyone honestly still believe that the wicked Tories are selling the NHS to Donald Trump?

I thought this stupid rumour had long since been put to bed.

I really don't understand what you mean by "daft rumour". It's not a rumour, daft or not. It's happening. I really don't understand how anybody can be daft enough not to see it.

JenniferEccles

Oh dear. Is this daft rumour still doing the rounds?

Does anyone honestly still believe that the wicked Tories are selling the NHS to Donald Trump?

I thought this stupid rumour had long since been put to bed.

Well Boris did deny it to get re-elected, so those who believed him did get into bed with him. (Yuk)

But if you’ve been following parliamentary debate (which clearly you haven’t) this week you will find you’ve been shafted and the ‘wicked Tories’ refused to rule that out JE.

Ignorance is bliss!

RT
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They betrayed our country. They bet…

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Comments like yours, JenniferEccles, scare me. Are you saying that the vote didn't take place; that this is all fake news? Some thought process must have entered your head before you posted. What was it?

So often posters give an opinion as if it were a fact. When this is challenged they choose to leave the thread in question or play the Jeremy Corbyn card. I think our PM's responses in PMQT are often appalling. He cannot give a straight answer, he gets aggressive and insulting. Of course, we know by now that it is considered a cardinal sin to challenge our PM and the government. Dominic Cummings made that perfectly clear to the 21 Conservative rebels some time ago: ”We are going to purge you!”

Still we have a great guy in Boris and he cheers us up!

Still we have a great guy in Boris and he cheers us up!

True. How would we get through the day without the thought of Borisovich to cheer us up. Serial philanderer (not always 'serial' either), congenital liar, sportsman (if you're prepared to pay £160,000 for a game of tennis with him), party guy (rich Russian mates' parties preferred), Cumming's puppet....

Yup, what a great guy he is

All that is known. It was known before he was elected - and still people don't care. It makes you wonder about people's values.

It scares me too that people can be so wilfully ignorant/in denial about what's happening in this country and then try to dismiss it.

Supposedly free healthcare, which is not actually free but is paid for from the taxes paid in by WORKING people as well as by substantial national borrowing, is not sustainable for a population which will soon be approaching 100 million with half of those probably not working!

That population, as well 'free' treatment for all serious medical problems, wants free minor cosmetic operations, free sex changes, free counselling/drugs for any old personal issue you could think of, free abortion on tap for personal carelessness, free IVF when we certainly don't need any more people on this planet, free dentistry, free glasses and hearing aids, free patching up at the weekend after a drunken brawl......it goes on forever.

On top of this you want pay rises for everyone, excellent schools, improved transport links, regular rural bus services for the odd person who may catch a bus once a week, maintain other local community services, more and decent housing but without ripping up the countryside and welfare benefits for all and sundry, many of whom who have often paid nothing into the system or have nothing to do with this country. I'm sure I've missed loads of expensive other things out.

On top of that a worldwide pandemic which has seen many lose their jobs and be paid for doing nothing for several months. It seems Boris will have to find Jeremy's magic money tree first because, apparently, Keir is the new hero and knows where it is and will make everything right for the country and no one will have to moan about anything ever again.

We no longer have an NHS that is world beating. We are now near the bottom of the table of 31 countries.
We watched a repeat of the 2012 Olympic opening ceremony a few days ago. We were so proud of our NHS back then. What a terrible indictment of Tory policies over the years. Of course PFI started in the early 90s under John Major and was continued under Labour, but this underfunding under Austerity policies has seriously damaged our precious NHS.

www.theguardian.com/society/2020/jul/24/lack-of-beds-and-staff-will-hamper-nhs-in-clearing-backlog-says-study?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Email

Errmm ... don't tell Starmer, but Sunak has already found the magic money tree.

So, quizqueen do you agree that the first positive step would be to make all non working people (including pensioners and the disabled) pay for the NHS?

BTW I don't know if you've looked recently at the increasing list of treatments which are no longer available on the NHS.

Whenever I log on to my GP services online, I'm always quite shocked at the pages of non-NHS services which are being advertised on the GP's own website.

The reason US healthcare is so expensive is that private insurance companies and third party shareholders are involved. Ill health has become marketised and people profit from other people's misfortune. Is that what you want?

WELL?IS IT TRUE OR NOT?? If its just scaremongering gossip it shouldnt be on here- if its true then we need to know what we can do about it?! Why would even tories want to 'get rid' of NHS in the light of how theyve just saved our bacon in the pandemic including that of Boris Johnson? And no doubt will be saving our nations again in winter when BJ's 'mingling again' advice comes back to bite him on the a**e! So who in their right minds who works in NHS would want to work for them under that policy?What was all the 'clapping' to show appreciation for then if they want to 'sell them' to somewhere else? It wouldnt happen as the NHS workers i think would revolt.And i would back them!

Greta brilliant post and Growstuff couldn't agree more. I despair and really can't understand why some Tory voters keep making excuses for some of this Government's dreadful decisions. There is absolutely no defence for the Amendments to the Trade Bill being defeated, absolutely none. What sane person could agree that our NHS (or any part of it) shouldn't be protected from being included in any trade deal and that our very stringent food and farming standards shouldn't be maintained? Shame on all those MPs who voted to defeat the Amendments and shame on any Tory voters who agree with the defeat.

PS. The NHS is funded from taxes, but income tax only contributes about 25% of the Treasury's income. It gets most of its money from other taxes, so it's not just working people who contribute.

Supposedly free healthcare, which is not actually free but is paid for from the taxes paid in by WORKING people as well as by substantial national borrowing, is not sustainable for a population which will soon be approaching 100 million with half of those probably not working!

Taxation doesn't fund government spending, qq.

And what you term 'borrowing' is actually people's savings. That's what government bonds are, a savings vehicle.

Also, a very substantial amount of the current 'deficit' is from Quantitative Easing, where the government, by way of the Bank of England, issues new money into the economy. It's not as though we're running round touching up other countries for a loan of a £billion to keep us going. QE is 'owed' to no-one.

Government spending is a promoter of growth in the economy. It directly sustains small and large businesses by purchasing their goods and services and indirectly sustains them by way of the salaries it pays its employees, who then spend it in the economy.

Money is not only directly created by the government but also indirectly by licensing banks to create money through loans to businesses wishing to invest. Loans aren't made from the banks' deposits, they are new money too.

If money wasn't 'created' by government we'd soon be in a pickle as, with a steadily increasing population, there wouldn't be enough money to go round after a few years.

Taxation just takes excess money out of the system to prevent inflation.

Nannan2

WELL?IS IT TRUE OR NOT?? If its just scaremongering gossip it shouldnt be on here- if its true then we need to know what we can do about it?! Why would even tories want to 'get rid' of NHS in the light of how theyve just saved our bacon in the pandemic including that of Boris Johnson? And no doubt will be saving our nations again in winter when BJ's 'mingling again' advice comes back to bite him on the a**e! So who in their right minds who works in NHS would want to work for them under that policy?What was all the 'clapping' to show appreciation for then if they want to 'sell them' to somewhere else? It wouldnt happen as the NHS workers i think would revolt.And i would back them!

Playing devil's advocate here ...

Covid-19 has been good for the NHS in the medium term because it's killed off so many elderly people. These are the people who are the greatest users of the NHS in their final years, so the NHS will make savings on treating them.

Everything makes sense from a financial point of view, especially when you can hand out contracts for Covid related issues to your mates.

The voting against this bill by the majority of Conservative MPs doesn’t by any means point to the NHS being sold.

Just think about it for a moment- it would be political suicide for the party wouldn’t it?

It would be so massively unpopular that the Tories would be finished. They would go down in history as being the party which sold off the sacred NHS.

I suspect this Bill was unpopular because it may have been too restrictive in any future trade deals.

And, yes, it's true - unless Hansard lies.

Nannan2 well if the Government loved our NHS so much, howcome they just voted down an Amendment to protect it, (or parts of it) from a trade deal? If they don't want it protected from any future trade deal, that can only mean one thing - they want to be able to include it in a deal!!!

JenniferEccles

The voting against this bill by the majority of Conservative MPs doesn’t by any means point to the NHS being sold.

Just think about it for a moment- it would be political suicide for the party wouldn’t it?

It would be so massively unpopular that the Tories would be finished. They would go down in history as being the party which sold off the sacred NHS.

I suspect this Bill was unpopular because it may have been too restrictive in any future trade deals.

Such innocence.

There is a Tory MP who has stated that these things are already protected in law. Now my problem with that is why bother to vote against it if it merely reinforces other legislation. Why not just pass it through or abstain? Unless it is really a threat to your actual aims? There is a petition to the H of Lords to ask them to support the amendment and save the NHS weownit.org.uk/lords-NHS-trade-bill-petition

I doubt very much if it would be political suicide.

Conservative MP, John Penrose, sits on the advisory board of think tank "1828", which "calls for the NHS to be replaced by an insurance system. Penrose's wife, Dido Harding, was handed the contract for track and trace.

A company called Babylon Health is increasingly creaming off funds from GP practices - great for those who can afford it. An increasing number of private GP practices are being set up in the area and, I'm sure, others.

We're going to be left with a hollowed out NHS, which will be free at the point of delivery, but will deliver almost nothing.

Anybody who can't see what is already happening is wilfully blind.

It certainly would be political suicide if the Tories sold off the NHS and I am sure some diehard Tories would still defend them! Innocence undeed.

Just think about it for a moment- it would be political suicide for the party wouldn’t it?

Well, you'd think so, wouldn't you? But the past few years seem to have indicated that it is political suicide for a party to want to take back public services into national ownership and prevent private companies profiteering from them.

The NHS has already suffered from privatisation by way of 'outsourcing' to private companies. The recent scandal of the PPE shortage at a time when it was desperately needed shows just how 'successful' that was, didn't it?

I'm afraid that the rumour that could really do with dispelling is the one that says you can believe anything this government says...

It is absolutely clear that the government is not being honest about what it will have to put on the table to achieve a trade deal with the US. The UK will also have to come to some kind of deal with the EU at some stage and it's even frightened of admitting what the UK will have to relinquish.

I can't believe the naivety of anybody who thinks otherwise.