Teachers more worthy than doctors?

No, I wouldn't expect to get the same wages as most people in the workforce, because my skills aren't on a par with most.

That aside, I wouldn't and won't laud any particular profession as being the one above and beyond anyone else.

So schools have to fund the pay rise by cutting back on what exactly?

MissAdventure

No, I wouldn't expect to get the same wages as most people in the workforce, because my skills aren't on a par with most.

That aside, I wouldn't and won't laud any particular profession as being the one above and beyond anyone else.

Neither would I. Is anybody lauding any profession as being above and beyond anyone else?

vegansrock

So schools have to fund the pay rise by cutting back on what exactly?

Who knows? The vast majority of school funding is spent on staffing, so that's the only logical place that savings can be made.

Maybe cutting back on specialist teachers, so that some subjects are cut and/or class sizes increase. Cutting support staff is an option but doesn't save that much because they don't get paid much. Replacing qualified teachers with unqualified staff (as already happens). Not replacing senior staff. Not recruiting older, more experienced staff. Forcing out older and more expensive staff by constant harrassment.

All the above kind of "savings" are already being made. Of course, the quality of education and support for more vulnerable pupils suffers. A solution to the latter problem is to advertise the fact the your school doesn't have good special needs support and suggests (nudge nudge) that parents try another school. Expelling difficult, low achieving (and expensive) pupils can help the budget too.

Some schools in leafy areas have funds set up so that parents can make regular subscriptions and donations.

Scrapping academy chains and CEOs on massive salaries and money spent on "consultancy" services would help, but that won't happen while they're still the darlings of the Conservative Party.

Teachers who have lessons should get it but many schoolchildren have had no lessons .Cannot understand why teachers did not do Zoom lessons for children although I understand not every parent has a computer ,My daughter wanted to send her Reception class son back to school answer No

I wouldn't and won't laud any particular profession as being the one above and beyond anyone else.

Me neither Misadventure and that was not the intention as some seem to think. In this thread we have been reminded of all types of workers on whom we had to rely to get through our daily lives.
Doctors and medical staff do, however, get my total respect and I just feel that their pay increase lacks compassion. In a world where the government can overnight announce millions for furlough, for SEISS etc., I feel they could easily have made changes to the pay rise rules just to show that bit more gratitude. I don't care about various schemes and pre determined rises, here for once was the opportunity to have given everyone the same amount or some kind of equal pandemic bonus. No wonder it sets people apart.

One of my neighbours children go to a local state primary. They did not do Zoom lessons for children as more than half the children couldn’t access them, also zoom lessons are not effective for under 7s who have a short attention span. My DD is a year 5 in a private school. They did zoom lessons all day everyday - all children had their own laptops , or their parents bought them new ones. Parents complained children were suffering by being in front of screens all day. Parents who moan about how hard it is to home school their own one or two children are often the first to criticise teachers who have 25 or more children to teach.

Not recruiting older, more experienced staff. Forcing out older and more expensive staff by constant harrassment.

Not wanting to start a discussion on ageism and performance here growstuff, but that would be disastrous for the teaching profession and grossly unfair. Anyone who works in school knows what a wealth of experience the older teachers bring. We could even say they are more valuable, so yes they deserve to be more expensive.
In my experience, the very young dynamic teachers are brilliant too, it's the complacement ones in the middle who put in the least effort. But that's another discussion.

vegansrock, on a lighter note, as you move the discussion to a new area, I can tell you that you could have heard a pin drop when I stood in front of my whole school during assembly, but try controlling my own children and teaching them something at home was a complete non starter. It was such a battle, my patience was sorely tested and the worst was our son's comment once, "I wish you were like ordinary mums and not a teacher!"

Not recruiting older, more experienced staff. Forcing out older and more expensive staff by constant harassment.

Sadly, Ellianne, growstuff is merely highlighting what is already happening in many schools.

Very sad, Maggiemaybe and immoral.

That's what happened in my own school. Expertise was diminished because in order to save money, the HT only recruited newly qualified teachers, as more experience staff retired.

Yes, we recognised that this would happen when Local Management of Schools was introduced, twenty-five(?) years ago and Heads and governors had control of their budgets. Following this not a single teacher was appointed who was not straight out of College; many have stayed in the school and the majority of staff are of the same age, all approaching fifty. Another downside is a disproportionate and very expensive amount of maternity leave and part-time teaching.

Mistyfluff8

Teachers who have lessons should get it but many schoolchildren have had no lessons .Cannot understand why teachers did not do Zoom lessons for children although I understand not every parent has a computer ,My daughter wanted to send her Reception class son back to school answer No

Initially, there were concerns over the security of Zoom. Some meetings were "gatecrashed" by outsiders who got hold of codes and there were concerns about child protection. In normal circumstances, teachers are not allowed to contact pupils directly apart from on school controlled platforms. Some teachers were forbidden from using Zoom. That's why some teachers recorded lessons, but that's quite time consuming.

Ellianne

^I wouldn't and won't laud any particular profession as being the one above and beyond anyone else.^

Me neither Misadventure and that was not the intention as some seem to think. In this thread we have been reminded of all types of workers on whom we had to rely to get through our daily lives.
Doctors and medical staff do, however, get my total respect and I just feel that their pay increase lacks compassion. In a world where the government can overnight announce millions for furlough, for SEISS etc., I feel they could easily have made changes to the pay rise rules just to show that bit more gratitude. I don't care about various schemes and pre determined rises, here for once was the opportunity to have given everyone the same amount or some kind of equal pandemic bonus. No wonder it sets people apart.

I've already asked the question. How does one decide who is worth more?

Ellianne

*Not recruiting older, more experienced staff. Forcing out older and more expensive staff by constant harrassment.*

Not wanting to start a discussion on ageism and performance here growstuff, but that would be disastrous for the teaching profession and grossly unfair. Anyone who works in school knows what a wealth of experience the older teachers bring. We could even say they are more valuable, so yes they deserve to be more expensive.
In my experience, the very young dynamic teachers are brilliant too, it's the complacement ones in the middle who put in the least effort. But that's another discussion.

You said it! It is disastrous! And it's happening!

I think people who put their lives on the line deserve our thanks by the way of a pay increase. That would include all medical staff and hospital staff. Over 500 hospital staff and GPs died of Coronavirus contracted directly through their selfless work. I only read the other day that no teachers have died through Coronavirus contracted through their work.

Normally I do not wish to set one profession against another, and I refuse to do so now. It’s unhelpful and divisive and doesn’t recognise that everyone in society is interdependent. Private businesses, medics, teachers, care workers, bus drivers, etc. All are necessary in order to run a modern society. However, medics have worked tirelessly to save the lives of so many people during this crisis that I really do think they deserve a reward. Clapping simply wasn’t enough. Actually it’s an insult when the lack of recognition via a pay increase is withheld.

On another note, my niece is a teacher and has worked three days a week taking care of, and teaching the children of key workers. Two other nieces, my husband’s nieces haven’t worked at all, one is on maternity leave, the other pregnant, so didn’t have to work. All three were on full pay. My niece’s headteacher refused to go into school at all.

My grandchildren all attend independent schools. The seven year old child of my son has received a full timetable via zoom daily. The six year olds haven’t fared so well. The headmaster never even went into school and dealt with everything via email. The children were taught primarily by TAs. The headteacher said his teachers couldn’t go into school as they had their own children to teach at home. After a lot of argy bargy with my daughter he eventually put a teacher into school for a few days. My daughter was sent masses of pages of work that she was supposed to teach the children when they were not in school. The head was argumentative, dismissive, and unhelpful, despite knowing that both both parents were key workers. After Easter he declared his school would be providing no key worker childcare, let alone teaching. Eventually, after a lot of argument he agreed to continue the key worker care, but with no teachers present in school.

So the situation was very different in different schools. Some did brilliantly, others not so. The picture regarding teachers was also very different. Some did no work, others worked many hours longer than usual. But none of them died due to Coronavirus contracted through their work.

I was a teacher. My husband was a teacher. I will not teacher bash, merely state the position as I see it.

Incidentally my daughter’s children will be attending a new school in September. A school that did provide proper key worker lessons, and a full zoom timetable.

There will never be a definitive answer to the original question; a great deal depends on the specialism of the Doctor and/or teacher, also the experience and commitment to patients/pupils both in training and in practice.
Talking of practice, a great deal of a Music teacher's working day is spent practising with pupil(s), accompanying for exams, helping with composition tasks and the other aspects of written work. All this on top of keeping up to date with ever changing exam board demands and school requirements.
I went into the teaching profession to share my love of music, which has been my passion since I was 6 years old. The money wasn't great but good enough, I hoped to have a family when I got married, so the school holidays were perfect. I'm not envious of those in Promoted posts as I didn't want to (and wasn't smart enough) do the extra studying that was required.
I don't begrudge any medical people their pay rise, as I believe they earn it. However, I do wish bin-men, all supermarket workers and others in essential jobs which are poorly paid, could be given more pay as they really deserve it.
Old, young, short, tall - we all need to smile and support each other if we can.............but that's a discussion for another day.

maddyone I'm so pleased your grandchildren will have a new school in September. How could anyone have confidence in a Headteacher like that? He should have been in school himself to support his staff, to reassure the parents (paying customers), and to be seen by the children. Walking with their feet was the best thing your daughter and son in law could have done.

Sorry, voting with their feet!!! We all walk, hopefully.

maddyone

On another note, my niece is a teacher and has worked three days a week taking care of, and teaching the children of key workers. Two other nieces, my husband’s nieces haven’t worked at all, one is on maternity leave, the other pregnant, so didn’t have to work. All three were on full pay. My niece’s headteacher refused to go into school at all.

My grandchildren all attend independent schools. The seven year old child of my son has received a full timetable via zoom daily. The six year olds haven’t fared so well. The headmaster never even went into school and dealt with everything via email. The children were taught primarily by TAs. The headteacher said his teachers couldn’t go into school as they had their own children to teach at home. After a lot of argy bargy with my daughter he eventually put a teacher into school for a few days. My daughter was sent masses of pages of work that she was supposed to teach the children when they were not in school. The head was argumentative, dismissive, and unhelpful, despite knowing that both both parents were key workers. After Easter he declared his school would be providing no key worker childcare, let alone teaching. Eventually, after a lot of argument he agreed to continue the key worker care, but with no teachers present in school.

So the situation was very different in different schools. Some did brilliantly, others not so. The picture regarding teachers was also very different. Some did no work, others worked many hours longer than usual. But none of them died due to Coronavirus contracted through their work.

I was a teacher. My husband was a teacher. I will not teacher bash, merely state the position as I see it.

Hear hear! DH was a teacher, sister and sister-in-law were teachers, niece is a teacher...but when I said what you have just said on the previous ‘teacher’ thread, there was outrage.
Some good, some mediocre some bad teaching practices during the pandemic.

Indeed lemongrove!

So, hopefully, comments like the following will be seen in context. All were copied and pasted from a selection on this thread, although there were others on another teacher bashing thread a couple of days ago:

I don't agree with teachers getting a rise at all - the majority of them haven't been at work for months, and now they're off for the 6 weeks holiday

So some of the teachers went to work . Blimey that was so good of them .

My neighbour is an infant teacher and has barely done a stroke of work

Education ? What education ? My DGC haven’t seen a school for almost 5 months .

they haven't had to set foot outside and subject themselves to any dangers at all.

I just wish they could come off their pedestal and stop the superiority.

The teacher next door to me did bugger all for 3 months and boasted to me how little she was doing.

So many who work for the public sector have got far too much power which is why they've got this obnoxious militant stance.

Two teachers I know have had a lovely, relaxing few months hardly no school contact and are now well relaxed for the school holidays. They have had endless beach days and one actually confessed that everything was now done at home and thank goodness to be going away for the holidays or it would be boring !

It's as if they are perceived as some kind of super heroes doing a job for which others apparently don't have the stamina and patience. They keep asking the non teachers to try it and see how hard teaching is. I have done both, and from experience can say teaching is no more difficult than many other jobs which demand full concentration, planning, organisation and self discipline.

They haven't been available to help kids with homework queries because they've been out for a bike ride or at the allotment.

Teachers 13 weeks holiday and only a few were working full time whilst the children were at home.
So some of the teachers worked through the lockdown - so what?

Whether it's 180 or 195 days a week off, that's a lot, isn't it? Wow, far more than any other profession?

Teachers do not know they are born
As an ealybretired teacher I xan assure you many teachers have done very little during Covid.

Good post growstuff.
Lemongrove makes a valid point that obviously there are good and bad teachers just as there are good and bad doctors nurses politicians accountants etc BUT as your post shows too many people look at one example and turn it into blanket criticism