Teachers more worthy than doctors?

Ellianne I agree with you Doctors and medical staff dealing with life and death situations daily.
Teachers 13 weeks holiday and only a few were working full time whilst the children were at home.

Perhaps harrigran that proves you get what you pay for. If the village school was staffed and funded to the level of the private school you are fortunate to be able to afford, all children would have the same opportunities your GDs have. Unfortunately the Tories have cut the funding per head for all school children, doing it by seeming to raise the funding annually but failing to take into account the increasing numbers of school age children, so cutting in reality.

With the country on its knees, it’s a bad time to be announcing any pay rises for anyone.
I really enjoy reading posts from all the people who ‘know’ teachers who have been sitting around doing nothing during lockdown and who ‘know’ teachers who do nothing in their long holidays and who ‘don’t believe’ all the extra work teachers have to do.
It’s like listening to my brother who always ‘knew someone who had suffered much worse with that’,
‘knew someone who got my recent purchase cheaper’,
‘knows all the countries who have managed COVID-19 better’,
‘knew someone who could have done (anything) better’,
Teachers aren’t saints and perhaps I’m lucky in those I know. In which case I’m truly grateful.

Blame the teachers- I wish someone had taught GN posters some simple maths. If you have 2 year 6 classes in a primary school- 60 children needed to be in school to facilitate their moving to secondary schools. That means you needed at least 5 teachers (preferably 6 to ensure cover). Add the essential workers children- say 5 in each year group and you need another 3 teachers. That's 9 teachers working full time organising and coping with teaching and social distancing. With 14 teachers in a 2 form entry primary that leaves 5 teachers to provide on-line education for the other 90 children, prepare the classrooms for September organising class groups, entry times and exit times, sort out toilet and washing facilities and work out how to provide the National Curriculum under these conditions.If you have 1 or 2 teachers who have health problems God help them.

What about us teaching assistants? No pay rise for us as far as I'm aware. Many of us at low level (2 in my case, secondary) do above and beyond ordinarily with just a pat on the back of you're lucky. I've worked incredibly hard during lockdown phoning students, helping others online, differentiating work for groups of students, filling in spreadsheets, providing online lessons, attending zoom meetings, giving student feedback and producing a scheme of work for year SEN year 11s, as well as going into school once a week to work the key worker/vulnerable children. Not putting myself on a par with NHS workers of course, but we are on a front line of a different kind and this will continue in September. I've seen incredible dedication in schools and good teachers do a lot of work in the 'holidays'. This year they have also had to award results for GCSE and A Level. They - we - need a bit of rest, but most would much prefer to be in school.

Kryptonite TA's are worth their weight in gold. They have always been underpaid and the way they were denied holiday pay sometimes is appalling.They are also the first people to be cut as under funding bites. I hope someone sorts out their pay soon (but I'm not holding my breath).

I agree with you Kryptonite. TAs' pay and conditions of service are deplorable and many are exploited horribly. The fact is, though, that their pay isn't awarded by the School Teachers' Review Body. Unless you work in an independent school or academy, your pay and conditions are governed by local government pay scales.

I mentioned weeks ago that TAs usually have most close contact with pupils and are at high risk of becoming infected.

I’ve been reading Pale Rider, a book about the 1918 flu pandemic, recommended by another GN member.

One of the observations the author makes is that in times of communal stress and anxiety, even desperation, at the beginning of the crisis people band together, help each other and are generous and supportive.

Then as time passes, things change, the sense of community disappears and they behave unpleasantly to each other, casting blame etc.

This process seems to be happening in 2020 with Covid.

I really can’t understand the venom being directed at teachers receiving a well-deserved pay rise. What on earth is the matter with you all?

BTW, I forgot that considerably increasing teachers' starting salaries by 2022 was an election bung.

Kryptonite, of course TA's should have been included in the public sector pay rises.
So should care workers but as the Minister pointed out most care provision comes from the private sector. He claimed that as the government increased the minimum wage, its up to private care staff to up the wages of their staff.

This is another divided thread. Some posters make reasonable points but others are plain vindictive, ill informed and biased.

We had teachers in our family but they either went off into the private sector for better pay and conditions, set up their own business or sadly, retired on health grounds after 30 tough years.

Yes public servants get a decent pension currently but its under threat. It was always accepted that those of us in public service would never earn as much as those in similar jobs in the private sector. The pension scheme and relative security of employment compensated. Plus for most of the people I was privileged to work with, there was a desire to give something back to society. The pension schemes are being eroded so that's another reason it's difficult to retain teachers and other l.a. staff. Public sector pension schemes are based on the contributions made by members. The money has been well invested rather than exploited as for some in the private sector (Philip Green, Robert Maxwell spring to mind)

Isn't the country divided enough without seeking to suggest that everyone in the private sector works hard whilst everyone in the public sector is onto a cushy number? If that was the case we wouldn't be short of nurses, teachers, social workers/socialcare workers, police officers etc etc

This is the executive summary of the rationale for the teachers' award:

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/902527/STRB_30th_Report_Executive_Summary.pdf

Gillybob, seems like you are having a particularly hard time at the moment. Sure hope that is improving. Just wanted to say that, in principle, I am with you all the way. Never quite understand what it is with teachers - and I have some who are close friends - but they have this kind of elitism about their profession (and therefore themselves?). Don't know where it comes from but it certainly exists. When discussing lengthy holidays, one said to me, we need/deserve them because we work so hard. When I replied 'and what do you think the rest of us do?' Silence. I sincerely hope the current three year package for nurses is revisited and boosted considerably. Doctors with their handsome increments would not manage without them. As for the carers, well words fail me. Such a valuable and undervalued sector of the country. Sadly, I feel they will be left to soldier on pretty much unchanged. I am long retired and very happy to be so under present circumstances.

Having been a teacher in the past I know what a tough job it is. My DH was one as well so we know better than most about how demanding this job is. During this pandemic the teachers have done a fantastic job and I commend them and all the front line workers. They all deserve a pay rise. It is my belief that the healthcare workers however should receive more than the teachers because of the danger to their own health they encountered. I can't believe the comments of gillybob and others on here who would deny them this right. I feel saddened that they take this very selfish attitude. Where would we be without doctors and teachers? To say the country is bankrupt and we can't afford it is ludicrous. We're one of the richest countries in the world. Ok so we've borrowed a lot to pay the people on furlough but so have lots of other countries.

Well said janeainsworth. The way things have panned out really are classic.

PinkCakes you clearly have no concept of what a teachers day entails!!! They have been working throughout looking after 'key workers' children. In the school where my daughter teachers some of the 'key workers' were sending their kids to school when they weren't actually working but catching up on gardening and housework!! As Deedaa says they spend time in the holidays working on the syllabus and organising lessons for the following term. My daughter is in school at 7.30am and she leaves at around 5pm, she also spends a couple of hours in the evening working on marking and prep for the following day, as do her colleagues. Teaching isn't just a job, it's a vocation!! Orangerose your neighbour is clearly in the wrong career and not suited and too lazy to be a member of the teaching profession, in fact she's a disgrace and should be reported to the head!!

pippa
I cannot scroll by your post, I haven’t even read to the end of the thread. I am incensed to be honest. How you can dare to talk about the medical profession in this way, after everything they have done over the last few months.
My daughter and her husband are GPs, many of you know this. When the Covid19 crisis started they were bombarded with a mountain of extra documentation to read through and apply, they were working twelve hour shifts, and son in law did more than that as he worked out of hours shifts as well ( that means weekends, overnight shifts, and evening shifts.) My daughter worked from 8.00 in the morning till 8.00 or later at night. One night she called us at 9.45, she was on her way home from work. They did phone consultations, video consultations, saw patients face to face in the surgery, home visits, and care home visits, sometimes to give palliative care to Covid19 patients. There was not always sufficient PPE. They received no extra pay for extra hours. Holidays were withdrawn ie Easter. They have three young children. Their childcare (us) was abruptly stopped and the six year olds went three days per week to school for key worker care ( the school wasn’t entirely helpful by any means but that’s a different post) and the two year old was unceremoniously thrust into nursery. They were ordered to put him into nursery and given a choice of three that were still open.
My daughter works as a leader in healthcare as well as a GP. Her other role required long hours as she is involved in the organisation of delivery of services across the south eastern corridor. It’s a very responsible job.
Her husband worked in the Covid19 Hub alongside his normal job as a GP and his out of hours commitment, which frequently involved giving care to Covid19 patients in Care Homes.
How dare people say doctors didn’t work hard during this crisis. It makes me sick!

Incidentally my husband and I entered my daughter and her husband into a number of reward schemes offered by hotels etc for NHS staff. We managed to win two rewards for them. Others at least recognise the huge efforts made by our NHS staff, and in particular, my daughter.

And incidentally they had to care for their children, teach them on two days per week, run the house and shop, cook, do laundry just like everyone else, all without their usual backup and support, that’s us. Last year my daughter’s pay was cut by £4000 a year due to less funding given to GP practices. I don’t know how anyone dare criticise from a position of ignorance. As you can see, I’m cross.

growstuff

Repeat ...

Teachers' pay awards are decided by different bodies from those deciding on pay for other public sector workers.

It is not about playing one off against the other.

I agree.
Also, as Iam64 points out, most care home staff are paid by their owners, (private not council run) most being privately owned these days.

TAs are worth their weight in gold. Sadly in many schools when one leaves they are not replaced. I loved having a TA in the classroom with me.

My family and extended family are mostly in the public sector, teachers mainly, also nurses and policemen so I welcome the pay rises, particularly for the police.
At the same time I understand the feelings of small business owners such as gillybob and how worrying and unsafe they feel.

grannyrebel I would also add that to get ourselves out of this horrendous situation with Covid and Brexit, the country is going to need a well-educated/trained workforce with people prepared to take on new fresh challenges and intelligent planning.

Many developing countries recognise the importance of education far more than the UK does. Finland, which is always near the top of international league tables, treats teachers with respect. Finnish teachers don't actually get paid more than UK teachers do, but their training and conditions of service are better and the public respects education as a concept.

If the UK is going to have a world-class workforce, it's going to need world-class educators, teachers and trainers. It's not going to attract the highest calibre staff without comparable pay and working conditions to other graduate professions. Teacher recruitment targets have been missed for eight years in a row. Retention is particularly poor in the first three years of teaching and for the 35-55 age group.

Well said Pippa, totally agree with you.

My neighbour's daughter, who is a teacher and also posts every aspect of her life on FB or Instagram, complained all through the virus about the excess of work she had to do, not only teaching her class but also her own children. However, she also had amples of spare time to post the many, many (and I mean daily and lots of)pictures of outings on bikes, picnics in the park with her own children and telling everyone how much she was enjoying lockdown because of all the free time it has given her. I didn't see any doctors or nurses posting about their free time - did anyone else?

I’m saddened that you agree with pippa grannyrebel.
You must be another one who has no idea of how hard doctors worked during this crisis. Clapping the NHS isn’t enough, we should reward them with a pay rise. As an ex teacher myself, and my husband an ex teacher, I refuse to get involved in value for value comparisons because that’s unworthy of both professions. I just wish people would acknowledge the extreme pressure and hard work that our doctors put in during this crisis. And it undoubtedly was a far more stressful time for them than for many others.

lemongrove

My family and extended family are mostly in the public sector, teachers mainly, also nurses and policemen so I welcome the pay rises, particularly for the police.
At the same time I understand the feelings of small business owners such as gillybob and how worrying and unsafe they feel.

So do I lemon, but setting people against each other in a confrontational way doesn't help anybody.

Every single country in the world (maybe not North Korea?) has a mixed private/public economy. Most advanced countries have a state education system because they recognise that having well-educated citizens benefits the whole country. Taking it to an absurd level, where would private industry be, if it had to teach every potential employee from scratch, including literacy and numeracy? How would it deal with sick employees? Would employers have to arrange private health cover every time somebody needed medical care? Or just let them die (would save sacking them for underperformance)?

It so happens that I think that small businesses in the UK should receive much more support than they do (not just during the pandemic). I also think that there are some public service workers who've found a nice gravy train and refuse to get off, but they're not usually the minions who make up the majority and aren't that generously paid. I think I'd look at some of the highly paid appointments which have been handed in high places to cronies during the last few weeks before I'd start bashing ordinary classroom teachers.

Newatthis

My neighbour's daughter, who is a teacher and also posts every aspect of her life on FB or Instagram, complained all through the virus about the excess of work she had to do, not only teaching her class but also her own children. However, she also had amples of spare time to post the many, many (and I mean daily and lots of)pictures of outings on bikes, picnics in the park with her own children and telling everyone how much she was enjoying lockdown because of all the free time it has given her. I didn't see any doctors or nurses posting about their free time - did anyone else?

Yes, I did.