Rape convictions fall to a record low in England and Wales. Dame Vera Baird said in her annual report "what we are witnessing is the de-criminalisation of rape"

Gagajo
In order to avoid being raped, you had sex with someone when you did not want to (felt forced to).
You were raped on that occasion. Pure and simple.
Watermelon. Your attitude stuns me

quizqueen Sat 01-Aug-20 13:24:20

"I would definitely report it, if I was raped, but consider castration is the only answer-physical not medicinal- as they are likely to reoffend."

I wonder how qq might feel about that if her husband or son was wrongly convicted and castrated.

US states do divide rape into various classes and state quite clearly what the offense involves. One of the classes is rape when the person involved could be considered incapable of giving consent, either because of intoxication or some other factor. I had thought looking at this that they might have better conviction rates, but this doesn't seem to be true. If you are interested en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_laws_in_the_United_States

No, firstly because they hardly ever convict - but I couldn't live with it!

Galaxy

I really cant understand how men can get so intoxicated and then complain when they face a rape charge. They need to be more responsible and not get themselves in such a state where they may face a rape charge. Dont they understand they are making themselves vulnerable

Exactly.

Yes, I would report rape and advise any other person to do so.

In the case where a woman feels she has been raped by a man she loves and wants to stay with, it becomes more difficult to be certain what is best.

I can't imagine wanting to stay with a man who used force, but I know women, and gay men too, who have chosen to do so.

Whatever the crime, if we don't report crimes we are condoning their occurance in my view.

I think both victim and accused should be anonymous until a verdict is reached, because someone falsely accused has their character destroyed forever, but I do think the judicial system trivialises ALL sex crimes. However, I do think that no means no, and I am disgusted by the lenient sentences of those found guilty of sex crimes.

Galaxy - I agree with you too - but I do think a woman suffers rather more than a man when rape is committed. She is the one left traumatisd and very possibly injured and, as I said, like it or not there are men who will and do take advantage. Would you feel it wise for your daughter/sister/friend to be incapably drunk and vulnerable to attack because she might not be aware of what is happening and possibly have lost contact with her companions? Men who are impossibly drunk usually can't manage an assault I gather.

I dont hold women responsible for the actions of men. If I was going to advise my friend or daughter how to avoid rape or violence from a man I would have to tell her not to get into a relationship with a man as that is where most assaults occur.

I am surprised at your opening sentence Iam64 and wonder why.

I had read with dismay these statistics previously. One thing is for sure in that any victim needs encouragement and support throughout this whole post assault ordeal. Reading those statistics would be very alarming for any victim.

To support and encourage a victim to report it could stop future attacks and possibly prevent even more serious attacks. Often serial killers have previously committed rapes before finally killing.

I would also comment here that although the higher statistic of rape is against woman there is an increasing amount of reported rapes by men too. Only this year Reynhard Sinaga was jailed for drugging, abusing and raping up to 200 men. he was described as Britain's most prolific rapist.

Galaxy I don't hold women responsible for the actions of men - I don't see how anyone can be responsible for the acts of someone else, but we are responsible for ourselves and just as I wouldn't run about madly on the M25 shouting 'If your car hits me it's not my fault' then I similarly would not get so drunk that I was incapable of taking care of myself. From what you say about warning your daughter it seems you are of a mind to not trust any man.

It's so easy to 'earn' £10K (or more, in some cases) all that you have to do is to make an allegation of rape. You don't have to prove it, nor does he have to be charged, let alone convicted. Also, you get access to Legal Aid - while he has to fork out for his legal defence. You get lifelong anonymity while his identity is splashed all over the press for the world to see - thus ruining his life, livelihood, career and future.

Liam Allen is one case in many, and he was lucky, as was Ryan Thomas whose "sex assault" was caught on camera as being a friendly, gentle punch on her shoulder. Not so lucky were Simon Warr, and literally thousands of men who have been falsely accused and - in many cases - wrongfully convicted and jailed.

Until these headline statistics are presented alongside the number of false accusations made by bitter women, I'm afraid I refuse to believe that each complaint of rape equals an actual act of rape.

But it is much more dangerous to be in a relationship with a man than get drunk on a night out Rosina. But we dont advise our daughters not to do that. I am married to a man rosina so of course I trust some men. But its interesting what we advise our daughters to do and it doesnt seem to be based on risk analysis. And no body is saying to men dont get drunk or walk alone at night or you might face a rape allegation. So I do think women are taking responsibility for mens behaviour. If those women got drunk alone they would not be attacked. It's not the women being drunk that is causing the issue.

Given that many, many genuine cases of rape and indecent assault aren't reported, I find it odd that so many people believe that lots of false reports are made.

When my 14 year old daughter was the victim of an indecent assault, my first instinct was to go round to the perpetrator's house and attack him. I was in a rage. Instead, we did the proper thing and reported him. The police, Social Services (because she was a child) and the counsellors that they recommended were wonderful. My daughter endured a long and painful grilling in the witness box. Then the judge ordered a retrial because a police officer wasn't available to be questioned on a minor point. (She was on holiday.) So my girl had to go through cross examination all over again. Her counsellor had warned us that he would probably be acquitted, as they usually were. She was right. The day that he was found not guilty was almost as bad as the day of the assault.

The counsellor, after observing him in the witness box, said that based on his testimony she would bet that he had done it before. He had a job where he had access to children of all ages. I wonder how many times he has done it since then.

Do I think we did the right thing? No, she went through it all for nothing. I wish I had just gone round and kicked his head in. I still fantasise about paying a hit man to track him down and beat him up.

Would I report a rape? Not unless I had been beaten black and blue. Juries are more likely to believe bruises. Probably not if I knew the man. Somehow people seem more inclined to believe you would be raped by a stranger, when the reverse is true. Certainly I would not report it if I was in a relationship with the perpetrator. The chances of a conviction must be vanishingly small.

Bluecat, thanks for posting the experience your daughter and you went through when she was brave enough to report the assault. To go through two trials only for there to be a not guilty finding shows just how high things are stacked against victims.
So few sexual crimes against girls and women are reported. It used to be the case that unless the CPS believed there was an 85% chance of a successful prosecution, there would be no charge. The police and CPS must have believed your daughter's assailant would be found guilty, especially to go to the second trial.
Sadly, that individual will be seen by some as an innocent man put through a trial because of false allegations. Anyone who has worked in criminal justice, mental health, etc will be horribly familiar with your experience.

I used to be certain I'd report a sexual offence against me, and that I would support my children in doing so. I look at my grandchildren now and seriously question what benefits they could gain if their experience was like the one your daughter went through
I hope she is ok x

Bluecat I am so sorry to hear your daughters experiences. We need to do something to change this situation for the women and girls who come after us.

The amount of anecdotal rape myth “evidence” here is part of the problem. As I stated before, false reporting of sexual violence is no higher than for any other crime. In fact if we allow for the fact that conservatively 1/3 of women who are sexually assaulted do not report, them actually the “false report” number significantly falls.

I do not doubt that there have been people (generally men) vindictively accused, however to use this minimal exception as any sort of justification for further protections for the perpetrators is absolutely mystifying to me.

Sexual violence is part of the societal oppression of predominantly women and many of the views I’m reading here simply prop up and reinforce this current system. While acknowledging the very small percentage of false reports, for the vast majority of victims why on earth would they subject themselves to the degradation of opening their entire sexual history as well as physically traumatic examinations on a whim? Every victim SHOULD be believed at initial report.

As I said previously, people need to be having conversations about consent. Many perpetrators do not know fully what consent is, if someone is drunk and incapable they cannot consent, if you fall asleep next to a partner and initiate sex which they may then tolerate (rather than actually want) - this is not consensual sex. I sincerely hope that the generations to come understand this better.

No, people shouldn’t get drunk and be out of control - but that’s not illegal! Sexual violence is - and the circumstances around it, whether at home, in a pub, a field or wherever should not negate that criminal act or be used as a means of justifying it!

I reported something to the Police. It was not rape but a verbal request for sexual contact from a married neighbour. They claimed there were no witnesses so they could do nothing.
There is another woman next door to this man (and his wife) who was a frequent visitor to their house. She stopped going to their house and became afraid to come out of her house if she heard anyone walking or talking near her house.
I became afraid to walk in the street too.
She and I share so many points. We are both single with children grown up and left home. We are similar in height weight and general description.
There is enough there for me to think there is "reasonable doubt" but the Police would do nothing.
Other people are reported to have had inappropriate things said to them in the town centre streets and that is said to be undergoing investigation. The case in my street does not need investigation I know exactly who it is.
Police need to be seen to be taking sexual assaults of any kind seriously or less people will even try to report anything.
I feel so sorry for PP's daughter who went through two trials for the man to get away with it.
I would bet that if a woman was to in any way attack a man who was attempting any form of sexual impropriety it would be the woman the police would charge

I am 64 and Galaxy thank you for your support. My daughter is okay these days, but back then there were 2 suicide attempts, self harming, and years of anorexia. It was hard but she recovered and has a good life. I think the experience changed her, though. She had to grow up too fast.

Bluecat, sorry to hear about that.
the police and cps were at fault in allowing a police witness to take leave when the trial was on.
dates to avoid are circulated many months in advance.
bad enough not to have a conviction; but to be grilled twice !

I feel for you Bluecat and your beautiful brave daughter.
My daughter went through a similar experience at the age of 12.
He is still out there and very well known to everyone some 20 years later.
I still feel the anger and rage you feel,it never leaves you.
There is no justice in this world.
My heart goes out to you,I feel your pain.

I was violently raped when I was 13, he broke my ribs and caused me internal damage after a night out with friends. My dad picked me up, I was a right mess, covered in blood, ripped clothes, terrified as him and his mates hunted me down through a rural area in their car as I tried to escape, I told him what happened and he told me not to report it as very few cases even get to court - he was a policeman! I sat all night in a bath turned red with my blood, shaking in fear, absolutely traumatised, no support, just had to carry on with life, we did not even tell mum - even now she does not know. So when your own dad, a policeman, tells you not to bother reporting such a violent rape, and you are still only a child, what hope is there?

cookiemonster, that's a terrible thing to happen to you and compounded by your dad's response. Not even to tell your mum feels wicked.
The number of posters talking about their own experiences, or the experiences of their children suggests being sexually assaulted is not uncommon. I read recently a figure of 20% of women and 4 % of men had been sexually assaulted after the age of 16.

I think it must be higher than that even, 1 in 5 have been raped, if you include sexual assault and harassment I dread to think.

When I was a regular at women’s meeting in the 70s and 80’s a show of hands in those safe places suggested most of us had experienced some form of sexual offence, from what used to be called flashing, through to serious sexual violence.
Those were the times when it was believed incest only happened in remote, closed communities. When casual sexual harassment was often experienced in the workplace.