Is morality something you expect of others?

What a lot of preaching and hot air Grandad1943. Pity there isn't any substance there.
while in reality many within that profession wish only to stay within its now five month old "shutdown comfort zone
Firstly there has been no five month shut down and secondly why on earth do you think people go into teaching? They want to pass knowledge onto children. They care about those children.
Do the education establishment really believe that employers in all other sectors in Britain have had limitless financing to solve their Covid problems, or untold amounts of space to bring about social distancing for their employees, of course they have not.
I wish you would explain what you mean by the educational establishment I would define it as the Department of Education, the Academy Trusts, the LEAs and any other bodies involved in the administration of schools but I think you mean something different.
As far as funding goes if you can give evidence of any other organisations which have increased capacity, reduced staffing, maintained standards and actually in many cases improved them whilst funding remained the same (in fact falling per head) as it was 10 years ago) I'd like to see it.
Many employers have introduced social distancing by limiting the numbers of employees returning to work, an option you aren't offering schools.
The teaching profession requires to learn from other sectors in what they have carried out to get their operations up and running again.
As many have already said offer your help and advice to a school, join a governing body, become a volunteer. Then explain how they don't want your help.
Finally I wouldn't dream of saying what the Nation wants and I don't think you should either. You are entitled to believe as you do, you are not entitled to assume everyone is the same

Just because school leaders and teachers are identifying potential problems/obstacles does not represent negative thinking; they are doing what all good business managers do: thinking ahead and planning for different eventualities. They are only interpreted as negative by those who have an axe to grind in relation to teachers.

And several people have flagged up the very real problem of the absence of real concrete government support to help schools realise their ambitions to get pupils safely back to school, in the context of already inadequate budgets. They are right to do so. In a situation where teachers and parents are providing basic learning materials for the pupils out of their own pockets, serious support is needed to make the new provisions viable. Teachers want to make it all work - as witnessed by the positive comments on the news by heads of schools in Scotland that have gone back today.

It is also worth remembering that a business faced with these challenges can borrow money; schools cannot do so in the same way.

Grandad1943 has already offered his invaluable and sensitive advice to a school near him. The offer wasn't taken up. The school he offered to help sounds as though it had communication problems between the head and the person that he contacted on a weekend morning with his offer, as I think they were unaware of the offer until they were awakened by the phone call, so perhaps they were less than gracious in their reply. Their apparent ingratitude does seem to have soured his opinion of all schools.

Grandad1943's posts on the subject of the faults of teachers individually and of everyone involved in teaching are triggers for a lot of anger and bad temper on these threads. If he had not already been an established poster, I might suspect him of being one of those people who invade social media to insult and abuse with the purpose of causing trouble.

I hope it does not drive a wedge between posters.

I've not "lost the debate" Grandad, because I wasn't "debating" with you. You have stated somewhere else something on the lines that you enjoy posting against teachers. That is believable! You keep posting from a position of immoveable rigidity without even considering what posters just as clever, committed and imaginative as you have to say, and wondering whether they might have a legitimate view of the situation.

You say "As has been stated, what is required is for the teaching profession to fully get back into the Schools, bring forward safe learning regimes for each site and then work the problems as they come about Why do you think heads, deputy heads, heads of departmens, subject heads, admin staff, IT staff, caretakers, cleaners, Uncle Tom Cobley and all have been meeting to discuss all those problems if not to get fully back to full-time learning, and bring forward safe teaching regimes? Work out problems as they come about - yes, but they also want to have as few problems as possible to have to sort out on the run. Do you really think they are so stupid and/or arrogant they refuse to compare what other professions are doing? So selfish they don't want a fulltime return to the work they entered with such high ideals?
What kind of school did you go to if you believe that? Did you have children at a school with teachers like those you describe?

Luckygirl

It is also worth remembering that a business faced with these challenges can borrow money; schools cannot do so in the same way.

Very many businesses caught up in this crisis have had no income whatsoever for many weeks and therefore could not afford to borrow money for their Covid problems.

Use what resources you have both human and material has had to be the solution to their restart operations or "go under".

, I'm sure you would gain a lot from being a governor, Why not give it a go. It is time consuming , demanding and often eye opening,but very rewarding.You could have a lot to offer.
Please though read the posts which are giving a true picture of life in the state system. They are not excuses and are written by people who have plenty of experience.
Lucky Girl you are so on top of the situation .It's a shame that some cannot accept it.
Wonder what the posts will be when the exam results are out !!

westendgirl, in regard to post @19:46 today, you ask why I do not put myself forward as a school governor.

In the above, I still work essentially full time in our own business, and in that offering safety support to other businesses. Those businesses do not have the advantage of state funding which guarantees all in education their employment survival with the exception of private schools of course.

Elegran

Grandad1943 has already offered his invaluable and sensitive advice to a school near him. The offer wasn't taken up. The school he offered to help sounds as though it had communication problems between the head and the person that he contacted on a weekend morning with his offer, as I think they were unaware of the offer until they were awakened by the phone call, so perhaps they were less than gracious in their reply. Their apparent ingratitude does seem to have soured his opinion of all schools.

Grandad1943's posts on the subject of the faults of teachers individually and of everyone involved in teaching are triggers for a lot of anger and bad temper on these threads. If he had not already been an established poster, I might suspect him of being one of those people who invade social media to insult and abuse with the purpose of causing trouble.

I hope it does not drive a wedge between posters.

I certainly don’t think that it’s Grandad1943’s posts that are the trigger for a lot of anger and bad temper, but if they were, you would have to ask why some posters get so bad tempered that they won’t allow for a difference of opinion.
I think the rest of your post....after those words is unworthy of you Elegran and am surprised.
Sometimes I disagree with the comments of Grandad 1943 and sometimes I agree with him, but he tries not to be personal to other posters and has the courage of his convictions.

lemongrove the straight forward truth and honesty of statement can be annoying to some people and no more needs to be said than that. ?

^ you would have to ask why some posters get so bad tempered that they won’t allow for a difference of opinion.^

But it's not a 'difference of opinion', it's a difference of expert knowledge v. opinion.

Or is this thread a rehash of 'we've had enough of experts'?

Perhaps it would be a good idea now to get back to the subject of the OP? I agree with others who say you can call on others to behave in a moral way, no matter your extra marital affairs/ divorce.If BJ had said it was a moral duty for us all to stay within our marriages ( no matter how bad they are) and never to have an affair....then that would be different!

MaizieD the armchair experts on GN again?
Back to the topic and enough of teachers!

MaizieD

^ you would have to ask why some posters get so bad tempered that they won’t allow for a difference of opinion.^

But it's not a 'difference of opinion', it's a difference of expert knowledge v. opinion.

Or is this thread a rehash of 'we've had enough of experts'?

I believe the above statement "expert knowledge v opinion" states it all when it comes to the Education Establishment.

In the view of very many within that establishment it would seem all outside are mere mortals and "know nothing". They in their total ignorance should not be commenting on Education matters in any way no matter what their long experiences may be in the wider world. ????

Lemongrove if we are returning to the original post, how does the claim of a "moral duty" now sit alongside a government which has steadily underfunded and cut resources which were meant to provide the very thing we are now apparently all concerned about - i.e. high standards of education for all children? As middle-class schools plug gaps by tapping parents for cash what is a school in a deprived area to do? The children who suffer most when TAs are dismissed to stay within budget are often the poorest and least able children. Apparently where money is concerned morals don't enter into it.

This government has just awarded teachers a pay rise above the police and anyone else.
Schools are well enough funded, but when did you hear any schools or hospitals or police or any public service say they are doing fine?It’s something they just never ever do.
Most schools do a good job of managing their budgets and some really don’t.They may do better with more cash injected
( who wouldn’t?) but that doesn’t mean they can’t manage.
The government doesn’t have any money....it comes from us.
(Cue indignant posts and armchair economists posting a lecture.)
Am sick of all the complaining and whingeing that goes on day after day about life in the UK.

trisher, all in the electorate were very well aware of the low morals of the leader of the Conservative Party prior to the last general election. However, that electorate still voted into office the conservative party with the largest mandate of any government in nearly forty years.

The above I accept as a being an affiliate member of the Labour Party and broader movement since 1965. Boris Johnson and his government will, in all probability now govern until 2025 and that fact we must all live with because that is democracy.

If a question requires to be asked it should be, "where is Kier Stamer been hiding throughout this crisis,". He did not show up in the Cummings crisis and it has been a "no show" as the schools reopening debate has got underway.

The invisible man. ?

Lemongrove That I spoke sharply to Grandad1943 even though I would not normally have done so is evidence of how strongly I feel that he has repeatedly overstated his case on this - to the point of obsession.

Why are you surprised that I object to the way he condemns ALL the teaching profession for supposedly having months of doing F. all, and then blocking instructions to take all children back full time nto schools for purely selfish reasons, when I personally know many teachers who have been working even longer hours than before lockdown, first at learning how to use a completely new medium and then at designing and giving online lessons and doing follow-up checks that it is all understood, marking online "homework" keeping records, and phoning individual pupils and their families to reassure them that their education has NOT come to a grinding halt - and incidentally soothing many fears about non-schooling concerns. Then they have been preparing to receive pupils back in schools and rebuild their classes again in a safe environment.

A very few have been "outed" in these threads as not doing all this - I imagine a few workers in other spheres have not been perfect, either - but how come that it is just ALL teachers in ALL schools who are somehow villains to some posters? Do we believe that ALL supermarket staff are slovenly or rude because someone experienced rudeness from a sloppy assistant in their local shop?

lemongrove By what criteria do you judge that schools are well enough funded?

They do manage their budgets, Lemongrove. what they can't manage is a sudden need for very large amounts of money when their budgets have all been spent. They have had no opportunity to squirrel away any surplus, as costs have risen over the years but grants haven't kept up.

Grandad What exactly is this "education establishment", of which you write so often?

It isn’t all teachers , it’s a mixed response from them though, and all the teachers and ex teachers on GN simply won’t allow any dissenting voices.It’s also the teacher’s union flexing it’s muscles.Those of us who have DGC who have received little or no education for months and months know the harm this has done to our children.
As long as schools put all they humanly can in place to open in September, that is all anyone can ask.Are there risks? Probably.Is it worth getting on and doing it? Yes, it certainly is. No other group of workers have 100% safety from this virus.
I think many of us feel strongly about this matter ( in one way or another.) I certainly do.

I don’t think this thread is ever going to get back on track as regards the OP.

Elegran

They do manage their budgets, Lemongrove. what they can't manage is a sudden need for very large amounts of money when their budgets have all been spent. They have had no opportunity to squirrel away any surplus, as costs have risen over the years but grants haven't kept up.

Many schools have "managed" by cutting things people complain about, namely special needs provision (which is costly and doesn't provide returns in the form of exam performance) and subject options, which is why many schools can't offer music or some foreign language teaching. They have also cut cleaning contracts, so schools are only given a thorough clean at the end of term or academic year. I think many parents would be shocked at how many mice and rats live in school buildings - I've seen them when I've been sitting on my classroom marking after school.

The latest funding formula, which has been packaged as "levelling up" is smoke and mirrors because it favours more affluent schools with fewer special needs pupils. Schools will sometimes ignore special needs, in the hope that parents will find other schools for their children, so that they are left with the ones who are easier and cheaper to teach.

Personally, I don't think that situation very "moral".

lemongrove You are mistaken if you think teaching unions have any real clout. Maybe you have an example or two of when anything unions have wanted has ever happened.