Feeling bewildered and wondering if I am wrong...

That was a reply to the opening post only.

MawB2 said ‘Sorry Geekesse - a common misconception
“Über alles “ means “above everything else” and in that sense is identical to the popular hymn “I vow to thee my country, all earthly things above”
“Über alle ” would be “above everyone “’

Point taken, MawB2, but it doesn’t alter the fact that the German authorities made the change to the German National anthem. We could repurpose the really good tunes to fit more ethical lyrics. As I said, I won’t sing the first verse of ‘I vow to thee my country’ either. I do not hold ‘my country’ above all earthly things, and I can’t promise ‘the love that asks no question’ to any entity. But I do sing, and value the second verse, though the non-religious might find that equally problematic.

Rosina, do you really believe that Britain should ‘rule’ all the seas, and every country surrounded by sea?

All thine shall be the subject main,
And every shore it circles, thine.

That does sound like a pretty gross form of imperialism to me.

I never gave the words of "Rule Britannia" a second thought. I've just read them and I agree with Rosina. But feel free to enlighten me anyone.
I love the last night and I actually made it to Hyde Park one year. And stood waving my flag singing lustily. It's a lovely memory. The Proms won't be the same.

The song was written in 1740. We've moved on since then but wan still enjoy the song and music without fearing we'll be contaminated. Can't we?

*can

At the time this song was composed the globe was largely pink, and just to put forward a positive aspect, Britain's 'ruling' of the waves, following the efforts of Nelson and the Navy, meant that we did much to wipe out slavery and piracy. A song of its time - sung at the Proms as a tradition. Are we to obliterate everything that has passed because we think differently now?

I object to people stating that the 'majority' think this or that when there is no proof that!! On the BBC, I often hear guests saying, 'Well, everyone thinks/supports' etc. That simply is not true, as my view is often contradictory to their claims. In short, I am fed up of my views being taken for granted and changes to my country's traditions being decided by organisers of events.

I agree QQ. Politicians saying "people wanted brexit" should say "a minority of people wanted brexit"

Nitpicking maybe, but "above everybody" would be "Über allen" (dative plural). "Alles" is a pronoun, whereas "allen" is an adjective.

Rammstein has a song with the words "Deutschland, Deutschland über allen". The whole song is ironic.

Germans would definitely have understood "Über alles" as meaning that Germany and Germans were superior to anybody and everything else on earth. They had been subject to propaganda language which conflated all sorts of images of country, pride, victory and war-mongering.

The point is that Germany changed the words as part of its de-Nazification programme. While retaining the sense of national pride, it lost the quest for German superiority.

Why change your own thinking to suit others?

quizqueen

I object to people stating that the 'majority' think this or that when there is no proof that!! On the BBC, I often hear guests saying, 'Well, everyone thinks/supports' etc. That simply is not true, as my view is often contradictory to their claims. In short, I am fed up of my views being taken for granted and changes to my country's traditions being decided by organisers of events.

Do you go to the proms quizqueen?

As far as I know, they're not a state occasion. It's up to the organisers and those who attend.

Rosina

At the time this song was composed the globe was largely pink, and just to put forward a positive aspect, Britain's 'ruling' of the waves, following the efforts of Nelson and the Navy, meant that we did much to wipe out slavery and piracy. A song of its time - sung at the Proms as a tradition. Are we to obliterate everything that has passed because we think differently now?

Nelson wasn't even born until 1758. He didn't have a song written 18 years before his birth.

quizqueen

I object to people stating that the 'majority' think this or that when there is no proof that!! On the BBC, I often hear guests saying, 'Well, everyone thinks/supports' etc. That simply is not true, as my view is often contradictory to their claims. In short, I am fed up of my views being taken for granted and changes to my country's traditions being decided by organisers of events.

quizqueen, I said ‘I think it would be a good thing to review a ‘tradition’ which no longer reflects the views of the majority of people in this country.

Do you think that the majority of people in this country support British imperialism? I’d have thought that while st there may well be people in this country who do think that Britain should lay claim to other countries and all seas, it is
a minority view.

And are you yourself in favour of British imperialism? If so, then you are entitled to your view, but I’m pretty sure it isn’t the view of the majority in Britain today.

In short, I am fed up of my views being taken for granted and changes to my country's traditions being decided by organisers of events

Imagine how people felt When told that winter festivals were now all going to celebrate Jesus!

But here we are.

Really bad use of different fonts imho

Yep that mug is awful.

I doubt it was done by accident.

growstuff I didn't suggest the song was written about Nelson, and my point was that some good came of Britain's sea power.

The mug is bad.

Having taken time to think, British imperialism is nothing to be proud of and perhaps it is time for a change and its good that people are thinking about it and want change.

I agree annpl I have considered a little more as well. I will miss those rousing songs though.

Do "all winter festivals celebrate Jesus"? How many people celebrate Christmas without giving the birth of Jesus a second thought, but simply enjoy everything else that is now associated with Christmas?

By the same token, how many sing 'Rule Brittania' because they love the music and know the words but don't subscribe to words' literal meaning?

I am also fed up of my views being taken for granted and changes to my country's traditions being decided by organisers events.

Oh Tannenbaum---The Red Flag. That's rousing.

"Be Glorious our free Motherland"--words of the best anthem that exists. The Russian anthem sung by the Red Army, rousing, unlike our dirge.

Not being funny but our anthem has played out, it's so mournful and once the Queen's no longer with us the anthem should go with her which I think it just might do.

Where will it end? How long will it be before we have to change the words of our National Anthem and can no longer sing 'God save our gracious Queen (or King)' because those who don't believe in God will be offended.

We can no longer say AD, Anno Domini 'the year of our Lord' it's now CE ie 'Common Era'. We can no longer say BC 'Before Christ' it now has to be BCE ie Before the Common Era'.

It's a joke but IMO not a very good one. So much for Jesus being the focus of all winter festivals; not.

Exactly Smileless there are more who celebrate the pagan version, Saturnalia than a Christian Christmas, when you think about it, lights, holly and ivy and stuffing faces with food and alcohol and a Yule Log.
Or as Pam Ayre’s says in her poem about Christmas Eve ‘the church was standing empty,the pub was standing packed!’

Think you've got your festivals and religions a bit mixed up there lemongrove.

Saturnalia is Roman from the god Saturn. Stuffing your face.

Yule is Germanic/Norse. Lights and logs.

Midwinter Solstice is Druid. Holly, mistletoe.

Just shows what a muddle it is?