Feeling bewildered and wondering if I am wrong...

I don't think it's a case of those who don't believe in God being offended - more that a National Anthem should be a song that includes everyone, or what's the point? The purpose is to bring everyone together in the name of a country.

When the current Anthem was adopted, the UK was a predominantly Christian country, but now even the Archbishop of Canterbury described us as a 'post-Christian country'. Apparently in 2014 only 4.3% attended a Christmas church service.

I think the Sainsbury's mug is dreadful, and can't understand how ever got signed off as a design, never mind get past the buyers. As for Rule Brittania - we used to sing that, Hearts of oak, Land of Hope and Glory and others at school. It does seem rather jingoistic with hindsight, and I'm pleased that that had stopped when my own children were young.

I'm not sure why there is a fuss (is there?) about the last night of the proms - after all, it is just a concert, and the organisers have as much right as the organisers of any other concert to choose what is played. Why is it any different?

Maybe they could just change the words to the songs. I love the resounding roars of the melody, and don't even consider the words that go with it. That's the answer!

I don’t think many people singing Rule Britannia actually mean it. It’s a historical song (1740) and nothing to do with now. It’s a good simple tune that people find easy to sing.

I have more problems with Land of Hope and Glory, because it is much more recent (early 1900s) and smacks of an imperialism I remember. When I had to sing it as a choir member I found it quite embarrassing, but choir people are very good at making up their own versions. It is convenient that Glory rhymes with Tory.

Poor old Elgar. He didn’t really want words added to his rousing tune, but the King (Edward VII) asked for them. They were written by AC Benson to fit the music.

The purpose is to bring everyone together in the name of a country and how is that going to happen when traditions are seemingly to be sacrificed?

well, from behind the safety of my sofa, can I say that I loathe the Last Night of The Proms, all those braying hooray Henries waving flags, all a bit too jingoistic for me, but perhaps that is because the Union Flag has been adopted by political groups with loathsome ( to me) views. Sad really. There again, I hate singing Jerusalem at our WI meetings, but out of respect for the other members I stand, and mime! Hard to explain really.

Why does everything have to scrutinised and picked to bits. There is no hidden agenda, we will be afraid to blink soon for fear of upsetting someone. It getting beyond a joke. I think everything British wants to be eradicated by some people, it’s bullying.

We can only hope that the majority wont give into bullying Sparkling, which is increasingly being camouflaged as political correctness and we can retain at least some of what constitutes as British.

Jerusalem isn’t remotely jingoistic.

I have never taken the Last Night seriously. Does anybody?

I’ve been to the Last Night and feel the jingoistic songs have had their day. There are plenty of other rousing songs to choose from. There were more EU flags at the last one than union ones.

It appears that some take the Last Night very seriously Grandma so much so that BLM supporters are a fronted by the traditional singing of Rule Britannia!!

Smileless2012

*The purpose is to bring everyone together in the name of a country* and how is that going to happen when traditions are seemingly to be sacrificed?

By celebrating things that a majority of people support?

I suspect it is Britons never, never, never shall be slaves which is offending people Smileless.

We don't know if, as is the subject of this thread, not having Rule Britannia on the Last Night is what the majority of people support.

Smileless2012

Do "all winter festivals celebrate Jesus"? How many people celebrate Christmas without giving the birth of Jesus a second thought, but simply enjoy everything else that is now associated with Christmas?

By the same token, how many sing 'Rule Brittania' because they love the music and know the words but don't subscribe to words' literal meaning?

I am also fed up of my views being taken for granted and changes to my country's traditions being decided by organisers events.

You’ve missed the point.

The celebration of Christmas and Christ’s birth was “borrowed” from earlier religions. It was done to make Christianity more approachable to places where it wasn’t previously.

As such, religions were stamped out and replaced.

Rule Britannia is a gloriously OTT, tongue in cheek performance by the soloist. The humour is much appreciated by the audience and adds much to the atmosphere of 'Last Night.'

The conductor Dalia Staveska is quoted as saying, 'This is a perfect moment to bring about change.' She also wishes it to be known she is a big supporter of BLM. Do we assume that she will regard any objection as being racist?

Leonard Slatkin also criticised the jingoistic nature of the patriotic songs when he conducted shortly after 9/11. The programme was changed to include more fitting music and rightly so - for that particular night.

Am I going to be jumped on if I offer just a teeny tiny objection to an American and a Finn exerting their influence in a way that could have far reaching consequences for our musical traditions?

First of all, apologies for missing the “n”off “Allen” in the post about the German National Anthem. I suspect it was changed more because of the association with the Hitler period than just the words, but be that as it may.

Now how about a campaign to reinstate the missing verse of God Save the Queen?

?“O Lord our God arise,
Scatter her enemies,
And make them fall:
Confound their politics,
Frustrate their knavish tricks,
On Thee our hopes we fix:
God save us all”?
I could certainly put some feeling into the final line!

Grandma70s

Jerusalem isn’t remotely jingoistic.

I have never taken the Last Night seriously. Does anybody?

Jerusalem is just plain weird. That is to say, Parry’s music is divine, and Blake’s lyrics are beautifully emotive but quite potty. It’s British Israelite stuff which was on the lunatic fringe even when it was written. I teach my kids to reply ‘no’ to each question in verse one, and ‘get them yourself’ to the ‘Bring me my...’ bits in verse two.

Smileless2012

We don't know if, as is the subject of this thread, not having Rule Britannia on the Last Night is what the majority of people support.

Maybe, maybe not, but my comment (which you quoted) was about the 'God' in God Save The Queen. You are moving the goalposts a bit.

I can't bear Rule Britannia or Land of Hope and Glory - or indeed anthems from any country that have similar jingoistic sentiments - and certainly wouldn't miss hearing them.

The words on the mug seem to have been badly placed so I do understand why it has been withdrawn.

Perhaps these two issues have been brought up to encourage "political correctness gone mad" sentiments. Not from me though, I would welcome both decisions.

Tradition is just peer pressure from dead people.

Always good to start new ones. People who want to can keep theirs and everyone gets something new, more inclusive and a lot more interesting.... If they want it, if not that's OK too.

If its a tradition that impacts some negatively or sends a negative message it has to go on a society level though. Gone but not forgotten.

‘Jerusalem’ is offensive to the Irish, Scots and Welsh

Starblaze ‘Tradition is just peer pressure from dead people.’

I love this definition. Thank you.

Tradition is just peer pressure from dead people. Always good to start new ones.

Sometimes our 'new' traditions evolve from existing ones though.

Can there be - a new tradition

Good point, Annie.

A repeated event in our family is often referred to as 'becoming a tradition.'

How long before you can say it actually is one though.