Feeling bewildered and wondering if I am wrong...

Grandma70s

Jerusalem isn’t remotely jingoistic.

I have never taken the Last Night seriously. Does anybody?

Jerusalem is just plain weird. That is to say, Parry’s music is divine, and Blake’s lyrics are beautifully emotive but quite potty. It’s British Israelite stuff which was on the lunatic fringe even when it was written. I teach my kids to reply ‘no’ to each question in verse one, and ‘get them yourself’ to the ‘Bring me my...’ bits in verse two.

First of all, apologies for missing the “n”off “Allen” in the post about the German National Anthem. I suspect it was changed more because of the association with the Hitler period than just the words, but be that as it may.

Now how about a campaign to reinstate the missing verse of God Save the Queen?

?“O Lord our God arise,
Scatter her enemies,
And make them fall:
Confound their politics,
Frustrate their knavish tricks,
On Thee our hopes we fix:
God save us all”?
I could certainly put some feeling into the final line!

Rule Britannia is a gloriously OTT, tongue in cheek performance by the soloist. The humour is much appreciated by the audience and adds much to the atmosphere of 'Last Night.'

The conductor Dalia Staveska is quoted as saying, 'This is a perfect moment to bring about change.' She also wishes it to be known she is a big supporter of BLM. Do we assume that she will regard any objection as being racist?

Leonard Slatkin also criticised the jingoistic nature of the patriotic songs when he conducted shortly after 9/11. The programme was changed to include more fitting music and rightly so - for that particular night.

Am I going to be jumped on if I offer just a teeny tiny objection to an American and a Finn exerting their influence in a way that could have far reaching consequences for our musical traditions?

Smileless2012

Do "all winter festivals celebrate Jesus"? How many people celebrate Christmas without giving the birth of Jesus a second thought, but simply enjoy everything else that is now associated with Christmas?

By the same token, how many sing 'Rule Brittania' because they love the music and know the words but don't subscribe to words' literal meaning?

I am also fed up of my views being taken for granted and changes to my country's traditions being decided by organisers events.

You’ve missed the point.

The celebration of Christmas and Christ’s birth was “borrowed” from earlier religions. It was done to make Christianity more approachable to places where it wasn’t previously.

As such, religions were stamped out and replaced.

We don't know if, as is the subject of this thread, not having Rule Britannia on the Last Night is what the majority of people support.

I suspect it is Britons never, never, never shall be slaves which is offending people Smileless.

Smileless2012

*The purpose is to bring everyone together in the name of a country* and how is that going to happen when traditions are seemingly to be sacrificed?

By celebrating things that a majority of people support?

It appears that some take the Last Night very seriously Grandma so much so that BLM supporters are a fronted by the traditional singing of Rule Britannia!!

I’ve been to the Last Night and feel the jingoistic songs have had their day. There are plenty of other rousing songs to choose from. There were more EU flags at the last one than union ones.

Jerusalem isn’t remotely jingoistic.

I have never taken the Last Night seriously. Does anybody?

We can only hope that the majority wont give into bullying Sparkling, which is increasingly being camouflaged as political correctness and we can retain at least some of what constitutes as British.

Why does everything have to scrutinised and picked to bits. There is no hidden agenda, we will be afraid to blink soon for fear of upsetting someone. It getting beyond a joke. I think everything British wants to be eradicated by some people, it’s bullying.

well, from behind the safety of my sofa, can I say that I loathe the Last Night of The Proms, all those braying hooray Henries waving flags, all a bit too jingoistic for me, but perhaps that is because the Union Flag has been adopted by political groups with loathsome ( to me) views. Sad really. There again, I hate singing Jerusalem at our WI meetings, but out of respect for the other members I stand, and mime! Hard to explain really.

The purpose is to bring everyone together in the name of a country and how is that going to happen when traditions are seemingly to be sacrificed?

I don’t think many people singing Rule Britannia actually mean it. It’s a historical song (1740) and nothing to do with now. It’s a good simple tune that people find easy to sing.

I have more problems with Land of Hope and Glory, because it is much more recent (early 1900s) and smacks of an imperialism I remember. When I had to sing it as a choir member I found it quite embarrassing, but choir people are very good at making up their own versions. It is convenient that Glory rhymes with Tory.

Poor old Elgar. He didn’t really want words added to his rousing tune, but the King (Edward VII) asked for them. They were written by AC Benson to fit the music.

Maybe they could just change the words to the songs. I love the resounding roars of the melody, and don't even consider the words that go with it. That's the answer!

I don't think it's a case of those who don't believe in God being offended - more that a National Anthem should be a song that includes everyone, or what's the point? The purpose is to bring everyone together in the name of a country.

When the current Anthem was adopted, the UK was a predominantly Christian country, but now even the Archbishop of Canterbury described us as a 'post-Christian country'. Apparently in 2014 only 4.3% attended a Christmas church service.

I think the Sainsbury's mug is dreadful, and can't understand how ever got signed off as a design, never mind get past the buyers. As for Rule Brittania - we used to sing that, Hearts of oak, Land of Hope and Glory and others at school. It does seem rather jingoistic with hindsight, and I'm pleased that that had stopped when my own children were young.

I'm not sure why there is a fuss (is there?) about the last night of the proms - after all, it is just a concert, and the organisers have as much right as the organisers of any other concert to choose what is played. Why is it any different?

Think you've got your festivals and religions a bit mixed up there lemongrove.

Saturnalia is Roman from the god Saturn. Stuffing your face.

Yule is Germanic/Norse. Lights and logs.

Midwinter Solstice is Druid. Holly, mistletoe.

Just shows what a muddle it is?

Exactly Smileless there are more who celebrate the pagan version, Saturnalia than a Christian Christmas, when you think about it, lights, holly and ivy and stuffing faces with food and alcohol and a Yule Log.
Or as Pam Ayre’s says in her poem about Christmas Eve ‘the church was standing empty,the pub was standing packed!’

Where will it end? How long will it be before we have to change the words of our National Anthem and can no longer sing 'God save our gracious Queen (or King)' because those who don't believe in God will be offended.

We can no longer say AD, Anno Domini 'the year of our Lord' it's now CE ie 'Common Era'. We can no longer say BC 'Before Christ' it now has to be BCE ie Before the Common Era'.

It's a joke but IMO not a very good one. So much for Jesus being the focus of all winter festivals; not.

Oh Tannenbaum---The Red Flag. That's rousing.

"Be Glorious our free Motherland"--words of the best anthem that exists. The Russian anthem sung by the Red Army, rousing, unlike our dirge.

Not being funny but our anthem has played out, it's so mournful and once the Queen's no longer with us the anthem should go with her which I think it just might do.

Do "all winter festivals celebrate Jesus"? How many people celebrate Christmas without giving the birth of Jesus a second thought, but simply enjoy everything else that is now associated with Christmas?

By the same token, how many sing 'Rule Brittania' because they love the music and know the words but don't subscribe to words' literal meaning?

I am also fed up of my views being taken for granted and changes to my country's traditions being decided by organisers events.

I agree annpl I have considered a little more as well. I will miss those rousing songs though.

The mug is bad.

Having taken time to think, British imperialism is nothing to be proud of and perhaps it is time for a change and its good that people are thinking about it and want change.

growstuff I didn't suggest the song was written about Nelson, and my point was that some good came of Britain's sea power.