Gransnet forums

News & politics

Blanket order on all care homes to place Do Not Resuscitate orders on all residents

(76 Posts)
westendgirl Mon 24-Aug-20 10:24:21

This is reported in today's papers. I wonder what Gransnet members think of this dreadful news that care homes were ordered to introduce this without discussion with staff, family members or residents.
Surely this is unethical and there should most definitely be an inquiry.

Elegran Mon 24-Aug-20 10:40:56

Is that still in place, or was it a temporary thing when coronavirus was putting such a strain on the NHS? Is it ALL care homes, or just NHS ones?

Elegran Mon 24-Aug-20 10:42:01

It was widely reported in April. Is the situation the same now, or is it just that some papers have picked up on old news?

Illte Mon 24-Aug-20 10:46:50

Well let's be accurate about this.

PROFESSOR leary surveyed 128 care homes selected by her, not random.
She found that 1 in 10 had applied DNR, in some cases without consulting relatives.

It still wrong but nothing like your headline grabbing post of blanket order on all care homes.

I do hate it when people lie exaggerate for their own ends.

FarNorth Mon 24-Aug-20 10:47:11

Ordered by whom?

Illte Mon 24-Aug-20 10:48:21

1 in 10 is 13 care homes that said they did this.

GrannyGravy13 Mon 24-Aug-20 10:52:40

Having had experience of DNR on family members, the form was filled in by a doctor (GP in one case and hospital doctors in others) discussed with patients except in the case of dementia when it was discussed with us (family members) all before signing.

Resuscitation is not something to be taken lightly in some cases it causes injuries which in themselves go on to be the cause of death.

Smileless2012 Mon 24-Aug-20 10:54:50

Thank you for the clarification Illtesmile to say my heart skipped a beat when I saw the title of this thread would be an understatement as my m.i.l. is in a care home.

Elegran Mon 24-Aug-20 11:00:35

It wasn't not done by all, or even a majority, and I don't think it lasted long. It seems to have been countermanded in April. Still not good, but short-lived, if so.

"The Queen’s Nursing Institute (QNI) – the world’s oldest nursing charity – discovered one in 10 care home staff surveyed was ordered to change DNR plans without discussion with family members, nursing staff, or with the residents themselves." which does imply that 90% were not.

and "One anonymous respondent, when asked about DNRs, said: “We were advised to have them in place for all residents. We acted in accordance with medical advice and resident wishes, not as advised by a directive to put in place for all by a Clinical Care Group representative. We challenged this as unethical." so it could be and was challenged.

That some care homes went ahead is deplorable, but it is also reported that "At the beginning of April NHS England medical director Stephen Powis wrote to NHS staff banning the use of blanket DNR forms after discovering a Port Talbot practice had asked elderly patients to complete forms to stop emergency services being called if they contracted Covid-19.* (my bold type) so it does sound as though whatever instruction was send out was rescinded.

That is why I asked (before I read the news items) whether it was a temporary thing or permanent, whether it was still the case.

Resuscitation of the old when seriously affected by any illness at any time is something that has pros and cons, and is a difficult decision to make.

trisher Mon 24-Aug-20 11:03:31

It seems shocking at first but I'm not sure I believe any of it. Hospitals in particular are so careful about DNR. If a care home applied it without consulting relatives perhaps the individual had agreed to it at some point.
It can also become an argument issue in families where some have known and agreed to it while others are kept in the dark or disagree.

Elegran Mon 24-Aug-20 11:07:06

The quotes are from the Times report. I should have added that.

There are other news items, most of them from back in April. The current news items refer to the report just out from The Queen’s Nursing Institute. I daresay the subject will be thoroughly examined in the next few days and a lot of comments made on it in the press.

EllanVannin Mon 24-Aug-20 11:10:01

This would first and foremost have to be sanctioned by the relatives and not staff/doctors or anyone else. A discussion between relatives and a doctor would have to take place and a full explanation given regarding a person's state of health.

Nobody can enforce back-door euthanasia !

allium Mon 24-Aug-20 11:35:23

What happens if there are no relatives?

GillT57 Mon 24-Aug-20 11:46:29

There have been misrepresented and bordering on fictitious reports of this on FB for a couple of months, claiming that staff are being forced to watch as elderly people are left to die. We all need to read properly and believe nothing on first impression!

Greeneyedgirl Mon 24-Aug-20 11:56:27

I do remember at the beginning of the lockdown some chronically ill elderly were being contacted by their GPs who were asking them whether they wanted to be admitted to hospital if they became ill with coronavirus, and also whether in that event did they want to be resuscitated. No wonder the hospitals were not overwhelmed. People were dying in Care Homes and at home.

Illte Mon 24-Aug-20 12:04:28

Yes, you wonder if the Op will come back to explain her motivation for such an inflammatory and inaccurate post.
Probably not.

Elegran Mon 24-Aug-20 12:10:10

It may be that the title should read " Request at the start of the pandemic to all care homes to review with their patients their wishes regarding Do Not Resuscitate or hospitalise them if they get coronavirus"
An inquiry could reveal just what the directive said, and the reasons behind it.

westendgirl Mon 24-Aug-20 12:13:02

I read about this in the Times this morning and can assure Illte, that I am neither lying or exaggerating .I believe this report which is from the Queen's Nursing Institute,
is also covered in the Telegraph and the Mail . As it is up to date I thought it was worth looking at .

Illte Mon 24-Aug-20 12:16:00

If you read about the report why post a totally inaccurate headline?

Illte Mon 24-Aug-20 12:18:01

128 care homes
1 in 10

How does that equate to blanket orders in allcare homes?????????

Oopsminty Mon 24-Aug-20 12:18:37

Blanket order on all care homes to place Do Not Resuscitate orders on all resident

The title of your post is just sensationalist, westendgirl

sparklingsilver28 Mon 24-Aug-20 12:20:41

Well Trisher, I would like to have your confidence, and/or naivety. Long before Covid 19, DNR known to have been placed on some hospital patient records without patient or family knowledge or consent. My opinion for what it is worth, euthanasia through the back-door. Just as failing to protect care home residents in this epidemic. I am sure Dr Shipman believed he was delivering a public service. So little regard is placed on human life. The next generation need to be aware, because if they fail to address this issue their turn is to come and "too late to close the door when the horse has bolted".

growstuff Mon 24-Aug-20 12:24:03

Here's another view from the Guardian, written in April:

westendgirl Mon 24-Aug-20 12:27:05

The actual headline in the Times is " Care homes 'ordered not to resuscitate ' as pandemic took hold.

"Care homes were asked to introduce blanket "do not resuscitate " orders for all residents at the height of the coronavirus pandemic , it has been claimed"
As you can see I was quoting from the Times . It is there for you all to read , which I stated in the second post.
My original post was asking if you thought there should be an inquiry.

growstuff Mon 24-Aug-20 12:36:20

I can't read the Times because it's behind a paywall?

Is it about this case?