Vaccine - I’m seriously concerned about this

Ayse, thanks I understand. It is a dangerous precedent in principle.

However these are unprecedented times.

Is the main concern that big Pharma is doing it, and probably competitively and for profit?

janeainsworth:
"What it doesn’t seem to say is that it’s ok to use an unlicensed vaccine because it’s been rushed through & isn’t fully tested, in order to suppress a virus mainly for societal reasons rather than for an individual’s benefit."

When the benefit to public health is great enough then there is less individual liberty. Smallpox vaccination was compulsory because it was a terrible affliction for the individual, worse than covid, and was also extremely infective.

I mean smallpox was an affliction, of course the vaccination was not an affliction

Alexa, setting this sort of precedent is dangerous for democracy and basic human rights. I have no problem with people choosing to be part of drug trials but this could be one big experiment on a mass of the population, many of whom will have no say in the matter.

I’m very much aware once this precedent is set it could be used to introduce other measures on a ‘temporary’ basis. I have no trust in this government at all.

There is always a risk/benefit balance with vaccinations.

If testing and licensing took years to develop and Covid progressed unchecked, how many millions of people might lose their lives unnecessarily?

Assuming that nobody will be forcibly vaccinated, we simply don't have time to dither - in the middle of a worldwide deadly pandemic - do we?

I agree that smallpox was and remains a devastating disease. However, it took the medical profession years to convince the public that vaccination would prevent the disease. Research is continuing into Covid and the mutations of this virus, with scientists suggesting there is still much they do not know.

‘Worldwide deadly pandemic’. The risk of dying from COVID-19 can vary considerably depending on age, ethnicity, access to healthcare, socioeconomic status and underlying health conditions. More high-quality surveys of different groups are needed, these researchers say. This is from Nature.com.

The figures suggest there are about 5 deaths per 1,000 of the population dependent on the above. However, they suggest that this is not a true figure as many people have the virus but are asymptotic so the proportion may be less.

The Black Death was a deadly pandemic. Up to 50% of the population of Europe died during the 14th Century.

Asymptomatic!

Right from the beginning I ve said I m not happy with the idea of a rushed vaccine and won’t be taking part until I feel happy which may not be in my lifetime
I think if it become mandatory there will be a lot of people going to prison
I think it’s much more viable to look at good medications to help if you catch the virus to prevent the need for ventilators and death etc

Me too Bluebell

Returning from Kenya in 1970, since there had been an outbreak of cholera in a remote part of the country, I had a compulsory cholera jab to be allowed back into the UK. So there's no reason why some vaccinations couldn't be made compulsory.

anno do you really think a small number of people having a well established vaccination in order to come home remotely compares to millions having to have a fast tracked unlicensed one ?

My daughter has a good friend working in this field. I don't know what his thoughts are on the government consultation but do know more generally something of what he thinks.

He thinks any vaccine will need to be modified every year to be effective (like the flu). He has said he would be surprised if it ever became compulsory. His manager is one of those who are trialling the current vaccine right now.

My daughter's friend also says that with all vaccines you never know if there’s going to be very specific adverse reactions or complications until you go from hundreds to millions. He’s apparently happy to be one of those first millions but says he wouldn’t go for it in, say, January if he believed he had anything particularly unusual in terms of genes or an unusual medical condition.

This is because they are unlikely to have been enough "experimental stage" volunteers with the same unusual medical conditions/Gene's.

In addition to the racing - by science around the world - to produce a vaccine against this new ‘plague’, people/governments should consider how little is known about Covid and how it is still evolving. We possibly don’t have time on our side with this unless it’s brought under control very quickly, but successful and safe vaccines cannot just be conjured up with a snap of the fingers...without all the risks mentioned in the OP here.

I am not going to worry about it ... or even think about it .... until it becomes more of a possibility. I have enough to be concerned about at present.

The important difference between the obligatory smallpox vaccine and the untried covid vaccine, is the smallpox virus did not mutate like coronavirus mutates.

As far as I know, the danger of vaccination lies in the base fluid which if it's from a horse or some other animal might cause allergic reaction. I doubt if the attenuated virus itself would cause much more than temporary discomfort.

However the point is the danger of any enforced interference with people's own bodies. And it is true, this government is too much interested in economic health instead of individuals' health, and moreover this government has made some really stupid mistakes.

I shall have the vaccine if it is available as the chances of its harming me are slim and I am at risk of covid due to old age.

Of course not, suziewoozie. I wasn't born yesterday.

anno I didn’t suggest you were - but you were making imo a very misleading and false analogy to support compulsory vaccinations

Please stop panicking and reading random things into unreferenced copied posts.
Unlicensed doesn't mean untested. It means that individual pharmaceutical companies will not have the product licenced to them but the responsibility will lie with the government. It will have been tested. You can believe that or not, as you like, but its the truth.
I could refute each of the points in the OP but I don't have the energy. But here are three things:
The transition period mentioned is the transition period for leaving the EU, nothing to do with testing pharmaceuticals.
It is being fast tracked AND all the safety testing will have been carried out. Aren't we humans clever?
Last time I got a flu jab it was from the pharmacist. I've given myself injections for a long term condition. As long as the medical professional is trained, who cares?

Something we need to bear in mind is that the laboratories have pretty well dropped everything else in order to work on this vaccine so the experimentation is more than usually concentrated. Also, a lot, though, I understand not all, of the labs are sharing information.

Whether they are working on it for profit or for humanity, the result is the same.

Alegrias the problem is liability should people suffer adverse effects. The pharmaceutical companies are effectively being absolved of responsibility & in the case of a collective action, it would be the government that got sued. Remember compensation for haemophiliacs who sued the government when they were infected with contaminated blood products? I don’t think that went well, did it?

suzie I didn’t read anno’s post as supportive of mandatory vaccination. I thought she was just giving her experience as an example.

alexa I don’t think it’s a binary choice between individuals’ health and economic health. Efforts to suppress the virus may have stopped some people contracting it, but there are multiple ways in which others have suffered mentally and physically from the economic effects of lockdown.

I forgot to say, thank you notspaghetti that’s interesting.

janeainsworth Then if this is a big worry for you don't have the vaccine until it is licenced. Despite what people say, it won't be mandatory. But waiting won't make any difference, it will still be the same vaccine (if one is found.) There are many things that could go wrong down the line and this seems like thinking "well if this happens, then that happens, then something else happens, and I have to sue someone, I'd rather sue a company than the government..."

In my opinion the whole premise of the opposition to this proposal is wrong. We have lots to worry about with the current UK government and their response to the pandemic, but this is not something we should put at the top of the list.

Alegrias personally I would have the vaccine as soon as it became available if it meant I could visit my son in the USA.

But applying the veil of ignorance, I think it is dangerous to use the route of bypassing the licensing process if it is being used as a means of supplying a vaccine to a population before it has been adequately tested for safety and efficacy.

Thank you all for your comments. Unless I have to have the vaccine to travel, I will avoid it, at least for now.

As I’ve mentioned before, it’s the precedent that is being set that bothers me the most.