Government by Decree

When you look at the list of 'rebels' it isn't all hard right MPs.

In fact, as the renewal of the Coronavirus Act empowers their government to act without scrutiny I can't see any reason why they should object to it. Apart from the fact that the principle of parliamentary sovereignty rests on the fact that governments can be held to account by MPs and the same MPs have the power to influence legislation.

I keep on and on doing this, but I'll try again.

Our constitution has three main elements (all supposedly underpinned by the Rule Of Law, BTW).

1) The Executive, which is the group authorised by the monarch to rule on their behalf. The Executive proposes legislation and policies.

2) The Legislature. This comprises all members of the House of Commons and all members of the Hose of Lords, regardless of party affiliation. They scrutinise proposed legislation and propose amendments. Proposed legislation can only be passed into law if they support it.

3) The Judiciary. An independent, non political body which interprets the law made by Parliament and makes judgements accordingly.

Because of the English Civil war, which challenged the absolute and undisputed right of the monarch to enact whatever laws they pleased, and ended up destroying the monarch, we have evolved a system whereby the 'monarch' (represented by the Executive in parliament) is only able to make/pass laws which have been approved by the Legislature, i.e by a majority of MPs and Lords (though the Commons is supreme over the Lords).

So. What is popularly described as 'blackmailing the government' is (and in this case in particular) MPs exercising their right and duty to hold the government to account.
It is particularly important that they do this at the moment as we have an Executive which has clearly shown that it wishes to violate the principle of the supremacy of the Legislature and take on itself the powers of a dictator.

Much as I detest the 'hard right' I know they have as much right to hold the government to account as any other MPs and I actually applaud the current moves in Parliament...

I wouldn't be surprised to see this group of rightwingers being supported by every single opposition MP

varian

I wouldn't be surprised to see this group of rightwingers being supported by every single opposition MP

And so they should be. This government needs to be stopped dead in its tracks and made to defer to Parliament..

The right of the elected body of Parliament to discuss and approve all legislation before it is passed applies to ALL legislation, ALL parliaments and ALL the shades of government that are in power at any time, not just the ones that any individual thinks particularly in need of supervision. That is what a parliament of elected representatives is about.

Hope that wasn't directed at me, Elegran?

I'm just trying to get people to understand how Parliamentary sovereignty works. It just so happens that my efforts coincide with one of the most corrupt governments within living memory...

MaizieD

varian

I wouldn't be surprised to see this group of rightwingers being supported by every single opposition MP

And so they should be. This government needs to be stopped dead in its tracks and made to defer to Parliament..

How?

Think about it for a mo....for 40 years all our government has had to do little other than carry out the EU's directives....All the guidance and direction came from them.
These ministers are unlikely to be expert in managing anything as they've had little practice. And so it has been proven.
There was always going to be a period of "pain" and disruption as we exit the EU's overeaching rules and regulations. Anyone who thought otherwise is naive in the extreme.

cupaffull

Think about it for a mo....for 40 years all our government has had to do little other than carry out the EU's directives....All the guidance and direction came from them.
These ministers are unlikely to be expert in managing anything as they've had little practice. And so it has been proven.
There was always going to be a period of "pain" and disruption as we exit the EU's overeaching rules and regulations. Anyone who thought otherwise is naive in the extreme.

That will be all leavers then

Oh my, cupfull - don't know where to start ...

What is so amazing, is that the very people who have been going on about how were were 'ruled by unelected from EU' - and that we had to go back to being Sovereign, etc- are now happy to see the UK's century long method of Government, our Sovereign Parliamentary Democracy'- being undermined and even destroyed by a handful of extremists, lead by an unelected extremist - and sold down the river to Trump- with us paying the heavy price.

Said so many times, but you truly could not make it up.

Think about it for a mo....for 40 years all our government has had to do little other than carry out the EU's directives....All the guidance and direction came from them.

That is so completely untrue that it's impossible to know where to start.

I feel very sorry for people who were sucked in by these utter lies; but even more sorry for those of us who have to put up with the consequences of this idiocy.

MaizieD It wasn't aimed at you - I was firing in the same direction, at the same target.

Those who think that 40 MPs are at fault for "holding the government to ransom " are missing the point - our MPs in parliament are supposed to be holding the governement (ie, the Executive that Maizie spoke about, who propose legislation and policies.) to their responsibility to allow the legislature to "get at" that proposed legislation to scrutinise, discuss and amend it. That is the job to which we elected ALL of our MPs. Proposed legislation can only be passed into law if they support it.

If the electorate doesn't like the 40 MPs, they will not be elected next time round, so will not influence the laws that are passed, but if ALL MPs lose their rights, none of them wil have any influence in turning proposals into laws (not even to get those lost rights back!) - and by extension, neither will the rest of us, who sent them to Westminster to represent us.

MaizieD Thank you for your excellent explanation. I think however, that you are banging you head against a brick wall trying to explain it to some of the GNers. ~I don't know how you keep your cool.

I agree, Dinahmo. It wouldn't be so bad if it was only some of the GNers who displayed ignorance/lack of knowledge on matters relating to the EU. Unfortunately it is multiplied many times in the general population. But as remainers have been told often enough "you lost, just get over it"...

It is the sheer ignorance that gets me. How is it possible?

Dinahmo

MaizieD Thank you for your excellent explanation. I think however, that you are banging you head against a brick wall trying to explain it to some of the GNers. ~I don't know how you keep your cool.

As you must have observed, sometimes I don't keep my cool

I do think that most people don't understand what Parliamentary Sovereignty actually means. Or the concept of Separation of Powers. And that 'most people' seems to include a number of MPs...

(I only 'know' because it was part of my Politics degree)

Unfortunately, the Brady amendment hasn't been chosen to be discussed in parliament anyway.

Interesting to read MaizieD post on sovereignty etc as we started watching Killing of a king - Charles I last night!

growstuff

Unfortunately, the Brady amendment hasn't been chosen to be discussed in parliament anyway.

That is very disappointing

MaizieD

suziewoozie

grow I agree re the whip. And yes, the 40 MPs are holding the Govt to ransom - so much for democracy and parliamentary sovereignty. I wonder what goodies they will get from Johnson? But he will lie to them as he does to everyone else - Labour are walking into the trap.

Hey! Hang on a minute. The tory MPs are rebelling because they intend to support an amendment which allows scrutiny of government plans before they are made law.

This is precisely how Parliament is meant to function, MPs scrutinising and amending proposed legislation. Where has all this nonsense about 'holding the government to ransom' come from? They're exercising parliamentary sovereignty FGS. The very thing that we've been bemoaning the potential loss of. At least, I thought that's what this thread was about.

I am actually quite baffled by this response of yours, Suziewoozie

I think the idea of holding the government to ransom was started by me and I don't think I explained myself very well.

I've been banging on for ages about how the government and unelected people have seized control and am concerned as anybody about what is happening. So where were these rebels when the big stuff about proroguing parliament etc was happening?

We now know that the amendment won't be discussed, but you can bet anything you like that there will have been discussions behind the scenes and that the government now knows that a certain group of MPs will rebel if the agenda doesn't suit them. That's what I meant by a ransom. They're in a powerful position, just as the tiny DUP group was in the last government. I have no doubt that their views on Covid restrictions will influence the government. I happen to think they're wrong and polls show that the majority of the population would agree with me.

What this group has done is conflate two different issues - the principle of parliamentary sovereignty and ways of tackling the pandemic. My belief is that the core of rebels aren't that bothered about parliamentary sovereignty. If they were, they would have rebelled on other issues. They hoped that the amendment would give them an opportunity to weaken the restrictions which have been put in place.

I wish the amendment had been passed and there had been a parliamentary vote because I believe MPs would have upheld what the government is doing. More than anything, I wish the government had a coherent strategy for the benefit of the country, but I'm not convinced that parliamentary discussion would have achieved that.

I sincerely hope that some other means can be found to hold the government to account, although I fear that our systems don't allow it.

They hoped that the amendment would give them an opportunity to weaken the restrictions which have been put in place.

I wish the amendment had been passed and there had been a parliamentary vote because I believe MPs would have upheld what the government is doing.

I can absolutely see your rationale here, growstuff, but I still wish that the amendment had been taken and the government defeated on it. Had there been a debate to attempt to weaken restrictions I think that the opposition would have ensured that it didn't pass, but the principle could have been re-established that proposed legislation should be scrutinised and debated by parliament.

I'm sure there will be many other opportunities for MPs genuinely concerned about parliamentary sovereignty to make their point. Let's see if they do.

Daniel Kawczynski is on the list of rebels. In August 2019 he retweeted a comment endorsing the shutting down of Parliament:

"Boris Johnson has public's support to shut down Parliament to get Brexit over line"

He's made anti-semitic comments in the past and has appeared at a number of far-right conferences, including sharing a platform with Victor Orban.

I wouldn't trust some on the list as far as I could throw them. I think they're even worse than Johnson & Co (and that's saying something).

I just found this, growstuff

www.hansardsociety.org.uk/publications/briefings/building-on-the-brady-amendment-how-can-parliament-scrutinise-coronavirus

Apparently, Theresa May intends to vote against the Internal Market Bill later today. If she does, I wonder if she'll have the Conservative whip removed.

growstuff

Apparently, Theresa May intends to vote against the Internal Market Bill later today. If she does, I wonder if she'll have the Conservative whip removed.

Much as I disliked her I recognise that that must be a huge thing for her to do and I think the better of her for it. (Assuming she sticks to it, of course)

I wonder if there are any tory MPs with principles left who will join her?