Starmer calling for lockdown (Edited by GNHQ)

Herd immunity doesn’t work with covid, because there is no buildup of immunity.

A regular vaccination may achieve a “topping up” of immunity but herd immunity certainly not.

All you who want another lockdown, what did the last one achieve?

The Asian flu epidemic of 1957 was not - in my experience - described as a pandemic. It reached Scotland courtesy of the US Navy which was paying a visit to the Firth of Clyde. Schools never closed. I was in the 6th form and none of us were affected. However, many teachers were absent and we were sent to supervise depleted junior classes. I doubt if any of them learnt anything! I caught it the following spring on its second round. It was the worst flu I ever had. My mum was quite alarmed and the doctor was called. In those days they made house calls! Hong Kong flu didn't reach me in Kenya. We were quite oblivious to it, but back home, my mum was hit so hard that she lost her taste for cigarettes!

Good posts JenniferEccles ??

Biscuitmuncher

All you who want another lockdown, what did the last one achieve?

It stopped the NHS being totally overwhelmed. Without the lockdown , even more operations and treatments would have been cancelled and we would have faced the possibility of Covid patients being triaged and some just left to die.

The opportunity was wasted to get a functioning Test and Trace system in place, which we absolutely must do this time round.

The government also needs to stop grandstanding about schools and look at the evidence very closely. Everybody agrees that schools must remain opening, BUT they are currently one of the biggest sources of infection, as predicted. Many children are having their education disrupted by the level of infection anyway. The government must listen to those people who have been advocating a mix of online and face-to-face learning.

And no more ridiculous eat out schemes and trying to shame people about working from home! The hospitality and transport industries will need support, as will people who are required to self-isolate - so be it!

Lockdown would be painful, no doubt about it, so it wouldn't be too much to ask the government to behave like responsible adults doing the job for which they're paid.

We shall see in a few weeks if the extra localised restrictions are having a good effect, if not then localised lockdowns is next on the agenda.The flouting of laws has to be policed, but with so many people involved ( huge city populations) it can really only be done by general compliance.Having the pubs and city bars closed may concentrate a few minds.

Biscuitmuncher

All you who want another lockdown, what did the last one achieve?

If you look at the data (in handy graph form) on here you will see what it achieved

coronavirus.data.gov.uk/

Unfortunately the government wasted the time it gave us by not introducing a rigorous test, trace, track and isolate programme (including travellers entering the UK) or mandating mask wearing, and by easing off restrictions too early.

It looks as though you're in Tier 3 Iam64. It was announced in Sky. Andy Burnham says he wasn't informed, despite being in meetings today.

I agree with you Mollygo!
I think it is also easy for any opposition party to give suggestions of a tougher lockdown but you can bet your bottom dollar that Starmer will be the first in line, in the future, to shout that the economy should have been given a higher priority when the debts rise.

Grandmama you are not the only one. I also have my doubts about the benefits of a lockdown BUT I can appreciate the PM’s dilemma when faced, as he was with a certain discredited Ferguson making the idiotic claim that 500,000 people could die from covid if no lockdown was introduced.

A classic example of the difficulty faced by the government in deciding which so called experts to listen to.

Ferguson wasn't discredited for getting his calculations wrong, as you well know. Or maybe you don't know, because it's certainly what the Daily Mail would have you believe.

What evidence do you have that 500,000 wouldn't have died if there had been no lockdown? We were certainly heading in that direction at the end of March/beginning of April. Lockdown had a dramatic effect.

Err ... no ... it's a classic example of a leadership with no convictions, which just wants to stay in power by saying and doing what it thinks people want.

Is it because Dido Harding is an expert in absolutely nothing that she's still in her job?

Local lockdowns only make sense if travel in/out of the locked down area is completely stopped and that's pretty impossible to achieve.
As for the media, without the journalists challenging the government during the lockdown when MPs weren't meeting, BJ and Cummings would have been totally unaccountable. As it is, they are getting away with murder, and how the whole situation can be depoliticised I have no idea. The contracts that have been awarded to testing labs owned by friends and family of governments ministers, and that have totally failed to meet their promises are a disgrace and these things continue to happen behind the scenes so as for giving the current measures a chance, I'm against that. Every day is a death for one poor family. This government isn't worth that.

Private test n trace consultants earning £7,000 A DAY. Worth it?

growstuff, there is to be an announcement around 11 am in which Greater Manchester and Lancashire will move into tier 3. Andy Burnham is looking into legal action in his attempt to ensure effective financial and other support from the government. I voted against Manchester having a Mayor because of the financial cost etc but when the Mayoral election took place, voted for Andy Burnham. He and the other "northern" mayors are fighting for their regions.
I'm with Starmer's call for a circuit breaker, the improvement of track and trace, and for local government to be involved in that. They have the local knowledge and experience. The Salisbury killings are proof of that.

vegans rock, yes outrageous that private contracts to friend and associates of Cummings and co are being handed out

JenniferEccles

I still think the PM’s strategy is the way to go.

The numbers vary so much around the country that a national lockdown would not make sense at all.

Starmer of course just wants to come up with a different idea just for the sake of being different.

I did however like the suggestion from one poster on here that maybe his suggestion should be taken up, on the condition that he (Starmer ) copes with all the resultant flack when it doesn’t work !

We need to keep as much of the country running as normally as possible whilst attempting to prevent hospitals becoming overwhelmed, and that is exactly what the PM is trying to do.

How about us all getting behind him and supporting him rather than constantly whinging, when he is clearly doing his dammdest to help the country through this?

Thank you JenniferEccles for an excellent post yesterday. I agree with every word.

I can't understand how they decide which tier to put towns in. There are towns and areas in the south with a very high number of infections but have not moved up a tier, in Wales they have put towns into lockdown with a lower infection rate then England I do agree with the tier system but they must stop people in those areas from travelling out to lower infected areas areas. Also Boris needs to have a plan for Christmas, a time when students will travel home and families will meet up, also people traveling in and out of the country. Does he have a plan? or is it just wait and see and make it up as we go along.

Sounds sensible to me JenniferEccles and * Laura Norder*. I don't know much about politics, but I do know the PM is right to target the areas causing the problems and agree we need to keep as much of the country running as normally aspossible. Isn't France doing exactly the same thing placing a curfew on its densely populated and large university cities (Lille, Toulouse etc.)? The Netherlands too? In a few weeks' time the results can be assessed, but I feel now is not the time for total panic and shut down.
Incidentally, the evidence shows boarding schools are coping well and are not reporting cases anywhere near the numbers secondary schools and 6th form colleges are. Why? Because they are well and truly within their bubbles and the pupils are NOT allowed out to pubs and bars under any circumstances. They are doing their bit big time and NOT breaking any rules.
To my mind that suggests that schools themselves are in general probably doing a good job, but it is the mixing outside by the youngsters, and the teachers going out at weekends, (yes, they do!), which is causing the problems in this sector.

The virus will not go away and we are likely to face annual vaccination for the prevalent strain, just as we do with flu. The aim should be to prevent the medical services being overwhelmed and protect the vulnerable during the time it takes to develop a vaccine.

I absolutely agree that there should be cross-party co-operation and consultation over Covid - it is not a party issue; it is about leaders getting together to sift through the scientific advice. Starmer is between a rock and a hard place - he needs to challenge the government on its covid policy when they get it wrong whilst not undermining public cooperation with measures that are put in place.

No it's to do with the many issues that those in education told you about the return of schools. We told people over and over again. People wanted schools back I have no idea what they are complaining about, they got what they wanted.

Oh thank you LauraNorder*
I know I am in the minority on here !

I don’t agree that “Starmer of course just wants to come up with a different idea just for the sake of being different.”

He comes up with a different idea because he believes it’s a good idea, exactly like Johnson surely ?

BarmeyoldBat How can Boris have a plan for Christmas which is months away when he doesn't have a crystal ball to see how infections will go? The Govt - any Govt anywhere - has to react to the circumstances.

JenniferEccles, Ellianne and LauraNorder -I agree with you.

No Sparklefizz Boris doesn't have a crystal ball but he can at least think (if thats possible) what will I do if the rates are still very high nearer Christmas, roughly 10 weeks away. A bit of forward planning.

There are more of us than you think Jennifer. There have also been other balanced contributions from Ellianne, and Laura.
Some posters on a Gransnet are determined to make the Covid crisis a left versus right situation. It’s not! It’s a difficult situation being managed and sometimes decisions are right and others turn out to be wrong. I can see that that certain decisions that were made were at best unhelpful, but whoever was in power, this would not be an easy time, and they would not get everything right. Perhaps those of you who know exactly how it should be managed should offer your services to the government.