Flying the flag

A Tory MP has suggested people should leave the UK if they do not feel pride in “our flag or Queen”.

Lia Nici, MP for Grimsby, spoke out as Tory politicians have been displaying huge flags in the background during TV interviews.

Robert Jenrick, the local government secretary, provoked laughter on the BBC over the floor-to-ceiling Union flag placed for viewers to see – triggering an angry response from some sections of the public.

Ms Nici, the Grimsby MP, went further, tweeting: “Of course if people are not proud to be British, or of our flag or Queen, they don’t have to live in the UK. Perhaps they should move to another country they prefer.”

www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/tory-mp-says-love-the-flag-and-queen-or-move-to-another-country-259313/

Someone should tell this ignorant, arrogant MP that it is possible to love our country and our queen without flying the flag to show how much you love the Tory party.

GrannyGravy13

Good try, but however you dress it up under the current electoral system The Conservatives are in power with an eighty seat majority...

‘Yes, dear. By evening she’ll believe she really did think and say what she claims. Her type used to be the bane of my existence. She doesn’t lie deliberately. She is simply sure that whatever she wants to believe is true. As a witness, the family cat was more reliable.’

When I read the above it really reminded me of those on GN who forget completely what was put forward as their argument and how they framed it because it no longer suits them, so much so that they are now totally convinced that what they now want to be the truth is the truth.

So what part of my post is untrue Pippaz ?

Pantglas2

“Conservative vote in 2019: 43.6%
Votes for Labour, SNP and Lib Dems: 47.6%”

Interesting argument Alegrias. Would you also argue with the 1997 result?

We all know that Labour got in with 43.2% of the vote (change that to some of us) in 1997. However, the Lib Dems gained 16.8% and the Tories only 30.7%. In my book this means that the the left of centre parties had very nearly twice the number of votes cast compared to the Tories.

FYO The only times since 2018 when there was an overall majority for any party -in this case the Tories was in 1931 and 1935 when they gained 60.76% and 53.3% respectively.

Varian Apologies for disagreeing with you (see page 12). I got my info from the H of C Library.

Firecracker 123 Sun 21-Mar-21 10:47:35: I think mostly the people objecting to the Union Flag being displayed when MPs are giving interviews on TV are Remainers, Labour, Lib Dem supporters or SNP supporters who hold a grudge.

MaizieD 12:22 Well, the amusing thing is, Firecracker, that these groups make up the larger part of the UK electorate.
So we win, I think

GrannyGravy 12:28 MaizieD sorry to point it out but you didn’t win which is why the UK has a Conservative majority of 80 and it’s no longer in the EU. (i.e. first mention of general election or any election or referendum at all. Out of nowhere.)

12:32 and 12:34, two posters post about how Labour, Lib Dem and SNP supporters do actually make up the larger part of the UK electorate but that the current electoral system means the Tories have a majority.

12:49: Indignant GG13 tells us she does understand the electoral system.

Thereafter, several posters jump on the bandwagon and accuse me of thinking the referendum was rigged and the Tories didn’t win the last election.

Make up your own minds. Have the triumphant Tories trademarked the phrase "We win"?

I've voted Labour for most of my adult life apart from an occasional flirtation with the Libs (tactical voting). Despite being extremely pleased to see Tony Blair win, I have always thought that the system was unfair because the majority didn't get what they voted for.

We really do need a change to PR but how we acheive that i have no idea, apart from going on about it on GN and hope to persuade a few more people to agree.

We all know that Labour got in with 43.2% of the vote (change that to some of us) in 1997. However, the Lib Dems gained 16.8% and the Tories only 30.7%. In my book this means that the the left of centre parties had very nearly twice the number of votes cast compared to the Tories.

There are many who believe that Tony Blair was a Tory, a true successor to Margaret Thatcher.

I got my information from Gransnet

Callistemon I think that belief came some time later. I just remember a group of us stayed up to see Portillo's result and how the fizz flowed afterwards! Mind you I quite like him now as a tv presenter.

“In my book this means that the the left of centre parties had very nearly twice the number of votes cast compared to the Tories.”

What massive leap of faith was made by the liberals in 2010 for them to go from left of centre to joining the right wing in coalition Dinahmo? Perhaps they weren’t as left as everyone thought!

Dinahmo

Varian Apologies for disagreeing with you (see page 12). I got my info from the H of C Library.

Thank you Dinah

In the 1938 GE the conservatives got 47.8% of the vote but with the help of smaller parties, were able to form a National Government supported by 51.8% of votes, so the 1938 GE was the single occasion where the winning party got more than half the votes.

I've just noticed a typo in my post 14.14.11 - 2018 instead of 1918. Stupid of me.

GrannyGravy13

So what part of my post is untrue Pippaz ?

As my policeman said GrannyGravy13 She doesn’t lie deliberately. She is simply sure that whatever she wants to believe is true. In this case you attempted to convince yourself and others of the thing you wanted to be true.

MaizieD sorry to point it out but you didn’t win which is why the UK has a Conservative majority of 80 and it’s no longer in the EU. (GrannyGravy 12:28)

I agree with Alegrias1 that the above post attempts to change the premise of that little discussion that had started and been replied to using people and not electoral systems as it's basis. Your conclusion does not hold true as you have manipulated the original premise the previous posters were using.

Thank you Alegrias1 and Dinahmo for your forensic analysis of my posts...

GG13 No problem

Pantglas2

“In my book this means that the the left of centre parties had very nearly twice the number of votes cast compared to the Tories.”

What massive leap of faith was made by the liberals in 2010 for them to go from left of centre to joining the right wing in coalition Dinahmo? Perhaps they weren’t as left as everyone thought!

That doesn't make sense. All over the world left and right work together in coalition. This doesn't mean that they change their view of politics only that they believe they can modify any extremes by taking a share of power.

Personally, I think it was very brave as there are very few Tories I would turn my back on let alone try and work with but no doubt they thought it was for the greater good.

Dinahmo

Can anybody honestly say that they have a full size flag in their sitting room? Somehow I doubt it and I suspect that those politicians (the cabinet in particular) who display a flag have it tucked away behind the sofa to bring out when needed.

Of course they do, Dinahmo! No one is suggesting that they necessarily have the flag there all the time. But when they are appearing on national TV in their official capacity as a member and representative of HM Government, then I would suggest that it's perfectly right that they get it out from behind the sofa...

I go back to Laurence W Britt's list in his article "Fascism Anyone". He makes 14 points and the first is:

1. Powerful and continuing expressions of nationalism.
From the prominent displays of flags and bunting to the ubiquitous lapel pins, the fervor to show patriotic nationalism, both on the part of the regime itself and of citizens caught up in its frenzy, was always obvious. Catchy slogans, pride in the military, and demands for unity were common themes in expressing this nationalism. It was usually coupled with a suspicion of things foreign that often bordered on xenophobia.

Even if you keep it behind the sofa it seems to me that the way they are positioning themselves with the flag falls right into this category.

www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/27/076.html

"As for thinking its OK to market haggis as a "British" product.....aye, OK! The company is in Glenrothes, BTW, if you want to buy one."
Thanks for the tip, Alegrias1. My east coast Grannie made lovely haggis, cased in the sheep's stomach, and my outer hebrides Grannie's equivalent was Ceann Cropaig: equally delicious (after the initial shock). Nowadays I generally go for the ubiquitous MacSween's - but I'm always on the lookout for something different.

PippaZ

I go back to Laurence W Britt's list in his article "Fascism Anyone". He makes 14 points and the first is:

1. Powerful and continuing expressions of nationalism.
From the prominent displays of flags and bunting to the ubiquitous lapel pins, the fervor to show patriotic nationalism, both on the part of the regime itself and of citizens caught up in its frenzy, was always obvious. Catchy slogans, pride in the military, and demands for unity were common themes in expressing this nationalism. It was usually coupled with a suspicion of things foreign that often bordered on xenophobia.

Even if you keep it behind the sofa it seems to me that the way they are positioning themselves with the flag falls right into this category.

www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/27/076.html

Could be applied to Russia and China as well...

PippaZ

I go back to Laurence W Britt's list in his article "Fascism Anyone". He makes 14 points and the first is:

1. Powerful and continuing expressions of nationalism.
From the prominent displays of flags and bunting to the ubiquitous lapel pins, the fervor to show patriotic nationalism, both on the part of the regime itself and of citizens caught up in its frenzy, was always obvious. Catchy slogans, pride in the military, and demands for unity were common themes in expressing this nationalism. It was usually coupled with a suspicion of things foreign that often bordered on xenophobia.

Even if you keep it behind the sofa it seems to me that the way they are positioning themselves with the flag falls right into this category.

www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/27/076.html

Here's an excerpt from an article by Daniel Malmer (an American researcher) on "The Long, Complicated History of the 14 Defining Characteristics of Fascism",ie Britt's List.

"First, extremists on the far-right and far-left share at least one ideological characteristic: they’re both anti-establishment. People on both the far-right and the far-left have used the list to “prove” that whatever administration was in power was “fascist.” Looking at usage over the years, I’ve seen people use this list to condemn every administration from Reagan’s to the current administration, including Presidents Clinton and Obama."

Having looked at the list myself, I have to agree with Mr Malmer. Stalin's Soviet Union ticked just about all of the boxes...

To those who disapprove of ministers or the PM in speaking in their official capacity with our own country’s flag in the background... you haven’t answered the question yet as to how you feel about N Surgeon standing next to the Saltire or MD or any Welsh ministers next to the Welsh flag.
So it must be fine in your eyes.
It’s just the English flag or the Union flag that gets your backs up.
Interesting!

Mamardoit
Apologies for the delay in replying to these questions but I’ve been out having fun.
Lillie
vegansrock
I guess a typical “English” celebration would be binge drinking.
Only as portrayed by some press reorts. Not true.
Evidence? I think we are near the top out the league for alcohol consumption

You must be a real bundle of fun in real life vegansrock

Yes I am thanks. Especially when I hit the cocktails. I know this is meant to be an insult but never mind

Do you ever have a joke with anyone?
Yes thank you . Quite a lot especially after a few drinks.

We could skip the pub and have a nice cream tea instead if you want. You could even leave out the cream. I wouldn't mind. - If your idea of a fun time is a cream tea I understand where you are coming from, but you obviously haven’t been out after 9 pm in one of our pre COVID town centres , not much sign of cream tea eating . Getting hammered would be far more common.

It’s a good idea to show the Union flag for several reasons,
1. It’s our own flag and high time we saw it more.
2. Now that we have left the EU it’s a time to think about the UK and promote it.
3.After an awful year with Covid, it’s a symbol to rally around.
4. With the SNP badgering for another referendum it’s a message that we have been in union with them for a very long time.

Anyone remember the I’m Backing Britain campaign? It really helped the economy, we could do the same again and buy British as much as possible.

Showing our flag on tv is nothing at all to do with heading towards fascism, but taking a pride in our own country and our union.

Pantglas2 Sun 21-Mar-21 15:58:28
Could be applied to Russia and China as well...

These days commonly refered to as left-wing or leftist fascism Plantglas.