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Flying the flag

(538 Posts)
varian Sat 20-Mar-21 13:51:47

Does the display of union jacks by politicians making video calls from their homes not just appear ridiculous, but a tad sinister?

www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/mar/19/flag-of-convenience-why-ministers-cant-get-enough-of-the-union-jack

Alegrias1 Thu 25-Mar-21 09:10:31

Here I am, the "ah but" woman and fully paid up member of the liberal intelligentsia. (Apparently) Not English though, so I hope you'll let that pass.

Your list, OldWoman70 reads like it came from the Child's Big Book of Empire, 1952 edition.

I don't know about Trial by Jury, but HMS Pinafore seems more appropriate.

For in spite of all temptations
To belong to other nations
He remains an Englishman
He remains an English man

MaizieD Thu 25-Mar-21 09:15:52

Here's another British view of the Union Jack which we might do well to reflect on. Nazir Afzal, former Chief Prosecutor with the CPS.

nazir afzal
@nazirafzal
I know large numbers of Black & Asian Britons whose experience of a Union Jack was that it was on clothing or tattooed on the fist of the men that beat them & abused them when they were young

They respect the flag, love the country, but many remain wary & some even suffer still

Oldwoman70 Thu 25-Mar-21 09:16:18

So you don't actually disagree with the list, just come up with words from a satirical song (written by a British man!)

PippaZ Thu 25-Mar-21 09:23:21

Witzend

I don’t think many people see it as a possession of the right wing, vegansrock - but do you mean the extreme right wing or anyone who isn’t very firmly left?

I would say it’s only the substantial minority of English people (NB I didn’t say British) often of the so-called liberal intelligentsia type, who for decades now have despised their own country - often with a lot of breast-beating over empire, never mind that other countries had empires, too - and seize every possible opportunity to knock it.

Somewhere I’ve got a little book with a (comic) verse whose first line goes, ‘Everyone hates the English, including the English’,

I should maybe add that as someone extremely widely travelled and who’s lived in other countries, I’ve never once found or sensed that ‘everyone’ hates us, much as that English minority would like to think so.

Where is the proof that those who disagree with you - whom you choose to disparage as "the so-called liberal intelligentsia type," despise their own country?

None whatsoever. I, for one, do not want to see this "very un-British Coup" continue. We live in a country that is going the same way as, for example, Turkey did under Erdogan who took advantage of the opportunities sent him to establish an elective dictatorship. I do not want that for my country. If you do, so be it but that does not mean either of us despises our own country.

In Turkey, this meant that elections and the real distribution of power could be pre-determined by control of the media, judiciary, civil service, security services and, if people still stubbornly voted against the government, by outright electoral fraud. We have seen the same things happening here.

The demographics of people supporting these elected dictators doesn't change and, of course, they know who they need to get on-side. The same happens time and time again. The well-heeled back a figure, who can attract enough votes from the lower and middle classes, is put in place and slowly many of the established parties slowly fall into line.

The strength of the Johnson coup is that so many cannot believe that, in our country, this could be happening. The fact that Brexit was always a path to power for the hard-right was difficult to accept and many stood back from fighting that battle; some still do not see it for what it was.

We cannot look to the past to fight this phenomenon - we must look to a brighter future produced by parties that do not want to take us down the dictatorship road. But never let it be said that we "didn't know". The signals are all around us.

Sources include:
Who Voted for Hitler? | The Nation
Boris Johnson's coup is eerily reminiscent of Erdogan's behaviour in Turkey | The Independent

Alegrias1 Thu 25-Mar-21 09:31:55

Oldwoman70

So you don't actually disagree with the list, just come up with words from a satirical song (written by a British man!)

The song is poking fun at the subject of the song who is lauded for being English despite having no influence on where he was born. Clever chap, Mr Gilbert. Good at highlighting pomposity.

For one thing on the list: "Britain invented the world say the Japanese" myth disproven 11 years ago:

ipkitten.blogspot.com/2010/10/fact-or-myth-now-we-know-its-myth.html

Kandinsky Thu 25-Mar-21 09:32:32

That poll asked a 1000 people in Wales ( aged 16+ ) so could have all been 17 for all we know.
I’d like to see a 20,000 poll fir the people who actually voted before I took any notice of it.

MerylStreep Thu 25-Mar-21 09:48:00

Kandinsky
One high profile figure who has seen the error of his ways ? is John Humphrys. Good article in the Mail today.

MerylStreep Thu 25-Mar-21 09:52:17

Oldwoman70
Thank you for this list. And as we know there are pages and pages of inventions that the world has benefited from.

Interesting fact I read. Of the top 20 tech companies not one of them is European.

Alegrias1 Thu 25-Mar-21 10:01:01

SAP. Number 8. German

Accenture. Number 9. Irish.

www.visualcapitalist.com/the-worlds-tech-giants-ranked/

Why do people just make things up?

varian Thu 25-Mar-21 10:14:47

Kandinsky

That poll asked a 1000 people in Wales ( aged 16+ ) so could have all been 17 for all we know.
I’d like to see a 20,000 poll fir the people who actually voted before I took any notice of it.

For confirmation, here are results of the last 24 professionally conducted polls which asked "was the UK right or wrong to leave the EU". Not one poll gave a majority for "right"

www.statista.com/statistics/987347/brexit-opinion-poll/

If you want to understand why your assumption is wrong Kandinsky, I suggest you read why many who voted to lreave now regret it.

www.facebook.com/RemainerNow/

Gannygangan Thu 25-Mar-21 10:20:44

It doesn't actually matter if 100% wished we'd stayed in the EU.

It's rather pointless to muse on this.

We didn't stay in the EU. Many of us were disappointed

We won't be rejoining any time soon.

Beckett Thu 25-Mar-21 10:26:14

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

varian Thu 25-Mar-21 10:27:00

That is all true Gannygangan. No-one is suggesting we rejoin any time soon. I doubt whether the other EU members would be keen to have us. However it is important to dispel the lie that brexit is supported by the majority. Brexit was based on lies and lies should always be challenged.

Alegrias1 Thu 25-Mar-21 10:41:35

Deleted as it repeats a previously deleted post.

MaizieD Thu 25-Mar-21 10:45:10

Deleted as it repeats a previously deleted post.

Lucca Thu 25-Mar-21 10:50:59

I despair . Beckett have you actually READ the thread or just jumped to conclusions?

Beckett Thu 25-Mar-21 10:53:48

What have I made up - merely expressing my opinion and thoughts, obviously not allowed if they differ from other posters!

EMMF1948 Thu 25-Mar-21 10:56:12

varian

It does look as if the Tory Party are trying to misuse the union jack in the same way that the SNP misuse the saltire.

These national flags belong to all of us, not to any political party.

The Government is flying the flag, the fact that the national flag is an anathema to one party when in government does preclude from the current party from using it.. We seem to be one of the only countries to be ashamed to fly our flag.

EMMF1948 Thu 25-Mar-21 10:58:21

Iam64

I agree vegans rock and wish that wasn’t so. We were walking with a group of friends, one had grown up in NI and has family there. They’re Catholic. His response to seeing a Union flag flying from a farm house was one of anxiety. He assumed the owners were Britain First types

So no-one can fly the flag for fear of upsetting a minority who claim anxiety? Did he realise which country he was in?

Alegrias1 Thu 25-Mar-21 10:58:27

Beckett - what have you made up?

Your whole post. But its OK, enough of us have read and understood the thread to help you understand.

Pretending you are the one being silenced is an interesting ploy, but nobody's going to fall for it, of course.

Beckett Thu 25-Mar-21 11:03:35

I made nothing up - I merely stated my opinion, sorry if you disagree with it but it is a free country (despite the efforts of Momentum and their followers)

MaizieD Thu 25-Mar-21 11:04:45

Beckett

What have I made up - merely expressing my opinion and thoughts, obviously not allowed if they differ from other posters!

You are expressing 'opinions' that have absolutely no basis in fact. Nobody on this thread has said anything that would lead to your conclusions.

growstuff Thu 25-Mar-21 11:06:45

Beckett

I made nothing up - I merely stated my opinion, sorry if you disagree with it but it is a free country (despite the efforts of Momentum and their followers)

No, you are stating your opinion of what you think was written, which is mainly illusory. You are entitled to express an opinion based on manufactured facts, but don't be surprised if other people express their opinion about them.

Galaxy Thu 25-Mar-21 11:11:07

So I could say I think from your statement you are momentum supportergrin. That too would be an opinion.

MaizieD Thu 25-Mar-21 11:11:21

Beckett

I made nothing up - I merely stated my opinion, sorry if you disagree with it but it is a free country (despite the efforts of Momentum and their followers)

Your opinion had nothing to do with anything that has been said on this thread which criticises the government's obsession with flying the flag.

But you didn't even offer an opinion. You asked a question 'Let me get this straight..' (that was a question, wasn't it? It looked awfully like a question) and you got answers to it.

We're not trying to shut you up, just saying that if you based what you said on what is written in this thread by the critics of flag waving, then you are wrong because none of them said that.