Bad language

I loathe violence as much as anyone on here, and as a child was very disturbed watching the Grosvenor Square riots against the Vietnam War, knowing that my Father, a Metropolitan Policeman was in the thick of it. I was also at my first ever demonstration in London on 24th March 2019, where hundreds of thousands of good natured, non violent, but concerned people marched to ask, politely, for a second referendum. We all know how that turned out. I HATE violence, and I get angry with people who hijack peaceful protest for their own anarchic ends, but, it has to be admitted that it is the noisy, violent demonstrations that get noticed, get people talking, get things done sometimes (Poll tax riots anyone?). As for those of you with your hysterical calls for branding, deportation, imprisonment, get a grip of yourselves, you need to have a lie down

A policeman friend of ours was hurt badly during what were known as the Toxteth riots years ago. From being a healthy 30 year old he became an invalid and died within a year of receiving a blow to the head. He left a wife and a 3 year old son.
This is the side that people forget. Policemen and women risk their lives whenever they have to attend a riotous situation.

I never forget it, AGAA4. Being police family and having had people I love have acid thrown in their face and knives swung at them when they are out protecting the public (the jeers and insults barely register), I can’t even watch footage of these events. These are normal human beings with families, not representatives of the state machine.

I haven’t heard one officer yet say they’re in favour of the Police and Crime Bill.

MaggieMay But they’d still enforce the law, wouldn’t they, even if they weren’t in favour of it? They know what they sign up for, and that very much is to be a representative of the state machine.

Every constable takes the following oath at their passing out ceremony:

I do solemnly and sincerely declare and affirm that I will well and truly serve the Queen in the office of constable, with fairness, integrity, diligence and impartiality, upholding fundamental human rights and according equal respect to all people; and that I will, to the best of my power, cause the peace to be kept and preserved and prevent all offences against people and property; and that while I continue to hold the said office I will to the best of my skill and knowledge discharge all the duties thereof faithfully according to law.

How do you envisage a country where nobody is prepared to uphold the law of the land, AmberSpyglass? Do you think you’d sleep well at night?

I mean, I very firmly think that the police in their current incarnation need to be abolished and replaced with something more fit for purpose with a focus on restorative rather than carcaral justice.

I can’t sleep well at night under the current circumstances, no. The thing about rotten apples is that sometimes you need to throw out the entire barrel and have a serious think about why so many of your apples are rotting.

If enough of our citizens feel that the barrel is so rotten that the police need to be abolished, then that’s a discussion that needs to be had. The initiatives in the US re the defunding of police should be part of that discussion, as there are several areas now where the police are dealing with things that should be the remit of other services, and funding needs to be diverted there.

Carcaral justice though? Isn’t that what was meted out to the Bristol police officers with broken limbs and punctured lungs? Isn’t that the sort of justice you thought they thoroughly deserved? What had those individual officers done to deserve a good kicking?

AmberSpyglass - where is your evidence that our Police are predominantly rotten?
I find those kind of comments as ridiculous as the earlier one suggesting branding protesters.
Maggiemaybe, many thanks for posting the police oath. GillT57, my father was a senior officer involved in policing marches/demonstrations in our city after IRA bombs. I do understand your feelings. The fear we could loose our dad on one particular occasion frightened me.

Sorry, AmberSpyglass, I googled your carcaral and came up with the definition of caracal (nasty little beggar!). I realise now that you meant carceral. My questions re the "justice" handed out to the injured police officers stand.

The thing is, the police have naff all to do with the justice system we use. Abolish and replace the police and you still have the prisons.

varian said "Sadly those on the right are less willing to obey the rules"

Judging from the posts in the comments section of the local newspaper (which incidentally is anti-police and supportive of the protest) those taking part have strong left wing beliefs. However, having said that I don't think making such generalisations is helpful.

I am sure there are people from all political beliefs who have concerns about the Bill but violence is never an answer.

Oldwoman70, the voice of reason, thankyou.

I think it is probably true that those who joined to protest about the bill going through parliament might have mainly left of centre views, but that does not apply to the violent thugs who were sent in to disrupt a peaceful demonstration .

To these thugs the ill judged slogan "kill the bill" meant attack the police, which was not the intention of the organisers of the protest.

varian

I think it is probably true that those who joined to protest about the bill going through parliament might have mainly left of centre views, but that does not apply to the violent thugs who were sent in to disrupt a peaceful demonstration .

To these thugs the ill judged slogan "kill the bill" meant attack the police, which was not the intention of the organisers of the protest.

I agree with what you say varian - I am sure it was a minority intent on causing trouble who are responsible for the violence.

I can sympathise with the people who object to the Bill, but they are definitely losing what support they had from the people of Bristol by having another protest on Tuesday night - which resulted in 100s of police from other areas being drafted in and 14 arrests - now they are planning another protest on Friday. I believe they should cancel that protest as no doubt those intent on violence and disturbance will also show up

I think it was the intention of those who subverted this peaceful protest to induce this sort of reaction, losing public support for the protest and increasing the likelihood of draconian right wing laws being passed.

To these thugs the ill judged slogan "kill the bill" meant attack the police, which was not the intention of the organisers of the protest.

We even, disgracefully, had the PM, in parliament at PMQs deliberately use that interpretation to attack the Leader of the Opposition.

Thankfully, the Speaker pulled him up short on it, but the damage is put there now. You know, that lie that flies X times round the world before truth has even put its shoes on...

Not many people would support the sort of violence that occurred and it will only strengthen the hand of those who want to curtail protests and make them less visible. I wouldn't be at all surprised if there were agents provocateurs within the protesters.

I agreed with the protest but certainly don't agree with attacking police or burning vehicles/buildings.

varian

I think it was the intention of those who subverted this peaceful protest to induce this sort of reaction, losing public support for the protest and increasing the likelihood of draconian right wing laws being passed.

I have to disagree with you there varian I don't see this as a right wing plot to ensure the bill is passed. I see it as a protest taken over by thugs whose only agenda is to cause disruption and violence.

That may be true of most of the thugs but not those who put them up to it and even , we are told, actually paid them to attack the police.

varian

That may be true of most of the thugs but not those who put them up to it and even , we are told, actually paid them to attack the police.

But you don't have any proof, varian.

I know that the use of agents provocateurs is a well known ploy which has been used for centuries, but we can't expect people to believe it happened on this occasion without any proof.

varian

That may be true of most of the thugs but not those who put them up to it and even , we are told, actually paid them to attack the police.

Who told who? Who paid the thugs? This seems just like another conspiracy theory or even distraction tactics to take the focus away from the violence

varian you have previously said "it was strongly believed" and you had heard from "reliable sources" in Bristol that these thugs were paid to be there. What are your "reliable sources". As I have said previously, I live in Bristol and only 1 person, posting in the comments section of the local paper, has claimed this. No-one I have spoken to has heard this "strongly believed" accusation.

As I said it is anecdotal. I just hope that a proper investigation will get to the truth.

varian

As I said it is anecdotal. I just hope that a proper investigation will get to the truth.

but you haven't answered my questions. You can't make statements like "reliable sources" and "strongly believed" without having something to back it up

but you haven't answered my questions. You can't make statements like "reliable sources" and "strongly believed" without having something to back it up

I think that she can. I think it's perfectly OK to believe someone you know to be reliable when they tell you something. I just don't think that people you pass it on to can be expected to take it on trust.

Thank you Maizie for pointing out that I havesain that I had this information via more than one reliable sensible person, but I accept that is not proof, only anecdotal evidence.

We will have to wait for the evidence to emerge, as I hope it will do if this appalling event is properly investigated.