How do we stop boys who become drunk being labelled as sex predators?

Pollyj these are reported rape statistics, the evidence is that boys tend to report less when they are raped and even less when they are assaulted particularly if a woman is involved. In fact the legal definition of rape in the UK rules out sexual interference by a female. In fact male rape (a man by another man) as a crime did not exist until 1994. The numbers reported have steadily increased since then. This is interesting reading eprints.hud.ac.uk/id/eprint/29241/7/Perceptions%20of%20Male%20Rape%20and%20Sexual%20Assault.pdf

Peasblossom

Wel, I know most of you aren’t going to want to read this and most of you will dismiss it because it’s not what you want to hear.

University of New Hampshire: survey results at the 2006 International Congress on Child Abuse and Neglect.

‘In the USA, Canada, Mexico, India, China, boys of upto 18 years suffer slightly higher rates of sexual abuse than girls. In other countries such as England and Australia the rates of victimisation of boys and girls up to 18 years were identical.

Sexual abuse of boys tends to be subtle and coercive. 95% of the aggressors were female acquaintances of the victim

It is not male only aggressors.

Hello,
Can you please post a link to the research paper so I can read it?
Thank you.

I don’t know how to do link, sorry. Or how people extract bits to post. That’s why I had to type it.

But it will come up in Google if you put in the Annual Congress etc.

Just a short story from dh’s past when he was working in the design office of a large international manufacturing company. The production lines were mainly staffed by women and none of the men wanted to be the one who had to go down to the shop floor. Young male apprentices had to run the gamut of inappropriate advances - including having their genitals grabbed - as they tried to get through the department. They usually exited red faced with a chorus of ribald remarks and cat calls following them. Thank goodness that culture is no longer tolerated as just ‘banter’ or a rite of passage.

We also have friends in the police service who say they would far rather deal with a bunch of drunk men than women as the women’s behaviour is often worse.

If we have equality then young women must accept equal responsibility for their actions. They are not all as we were in the 60’s and 70’s, often innocents abroad, but can be equally as predatory as men. Have you seen a hen party recently?

Inappropriate sexual behaviour is inappropriate for both sexes. I’m just tired of seeing men depicted as predators and all being tarred with the same brush. My Dh is lovely and I’m sure most of yours are as well. My poor brother is firmly convinced that all men are seen as rapists and is constantly examining his interaction with women. He’s almost afraid to talk to them. Extreme I know but I bet he’s not the only one.

It’s not always men and it’s not always women so let’s examine each incident on its own merits without jumping to the ‘he must have done it’ conclusion.

Oh and I have two daughters and a son.

I think that it's quite clear that if someone cannot give consent through drink or drugs or whatever then no consent is given and it's rape. Bring drunk is not a defence. Of course all harassment by any sex unacceptable and should be called out. Most perpetrators are male, the majority of victims are female. It is also seems that the availability of pornography is affecting behaviour of young people. The powers that be are unwilling to get to grips with the prevalence which is accessible from any smart phone. Until that happens I can only see the issues becoming more damaging all round.

Katek Your post reminded me I once had a holiday job in a factory where the machines were operated by teams of women. I remember what happened to apprentices who came on the floor. It was a real education for me. I'd been brought to think women were always respectful and men pursued them. I learned more in the weeks I spent there than I had in years before.

Sex education is not relationship education... societies/communities need to deliver content that includes CONSENT and all the 'nuances' which contribute to intimate situations. Boys/Girls need to understand each other and the pressures put upon them to 'perform' in today's relationship 'circus' (parents/families/adults too need to have an understanding)... This means all (adults and children) being aware of social media, pornography and the pressures on young people today. Its really not good saying 'in my day' cos that was a different world, today's arena for the young is a quagmire, often dirty and alien to previous generations. Adults are role- models for the young and we too are oft uneducated in the relationship stakes. Open discussion is key about all things 'growing-up', from very young we see adults behaving badly be it in real-life or on screen, hence talking and listening to our young, (listening is key and talking 'at' a no-no) is the answer. Like all things in life we learn behaviour at home, lots is learned at home, seeds are planted, be it racism, sexism et. al. We must be aware that little people, teens, and beyond need an honest agenda on appropriate behaviours and inappropriate behaviours, calling things what they are, not making up names, so what is 'sexual assault' what is 'harassment'... honest open discussion is key, and not to be left to schools, socialisation begins at home, whatever that home is hence we must remember learned behaviours are imprinted there very early in development... Apologies for my ramblings...

Good post Katek not sure many women are aware of this.

Katek - if you look at the prosecution/conviction rate for rape in this country there doesn't seem to be a lot of evidence for assuming the 'he must have done it'

My question would be how do you stop boys being sexual predators, drunk or not.

I would say that usually the conclusion legally is he must not have done it. The victims commissioner has recently said that the prosecution rate is such that rape is really not illegal anymore.

I think that girls use verbal abuse far more, at least they did when I was at school. I was bullied by a small group when I arrived at a new school in the 4th form. Also, I think, because I had ginger hair and there weren't that many red heads about.

As an adult it was common for men, when standing up in the tube, to press themselves against one. One time, I was traveling home on the top floor of a bus, sitting next to the window. A man sat down next to me and started pressing against me. I was too embarrassed to say anything so I got off the bus and waited for the next one. If it hasn't happened to you, believe me you can tell the difference between an accidental and a deliberate action, even in a crowded situation.

One evening on the tube, a man sat opposite a friend and masturbated - his actions covered by a newspaper. He then got off the tube. She thought it was funny and didn't do anything. He mouthed "Thank you" as the train passed him.

Typing this reminded me of an occasion when, traveling back into London after work, a young man came and sat opposite me. The carriage was empty apart from the two of us. I was wearing a tent dress (fashionable then) so was covered up. Just before coming into a station. the young man lent over, stroked my lower leg and then got up and left the train.

trisher

I was wondering, are girls who have never been groped going to feel they are unattractive in some way. I'm trying quite hard to find an incident in my life when anything happened and the only ones I can remember are when I was quite interested in the boy in the first place. I know I am capable of giving off quite strong "keep your distance" signals to anyone so perhaps that's why. Or maybe I've just always been a hag.

I’m assuming this was an attempt at flippancy - but the very fact that you are equating “groping” with female self esteem is hugely troubling. The fact that this may be a reality for some girls is even more troubling to me and goes back to my point that there are girls and females out there who have been taught that their sexual attractiveness can be gauged in the attempts of men or boys putting their hands on them. Cant you see how wrong this is? The days of having your bra strap pinged and accepting it as a compliment from an adolescent boy are over!
Our children (male and female) should know that they have autonomy over their body. That’s not happening for a lot of girls - and the result is that we have children who see no issue with touching someone else just because they want to.

I defy any female to think back over their life and not find at least one occurrence of feeling uncomfortable or upset at the actions of a man either touching, leering or speaking to them in a way that is inappropriate.

This movement amongst young women is highlighting that. Women DO feel vulnerable walking alone at night, women DO feel vulnerable if a man gets too close on a bus or brushes against them, women DO feel uncomfortable being sexualised verbally. If this is a common thread for the vast majority of women then there is a problem with the way men are treating them.

That’s not saying all men are rapists, it’s saying we have a cultural issue in the way our men are developing and if we continue to do nothing and say nothing, then shockingly nothing will change for future generations.

Just like women now won’t accept the “harmless banter” of the seventies and eighties, today’s young women are looking to change their reality and set boundaries on what they will and won’t accept.

It's fairly obvious that if being inebriated causes a person to behave in a way which endangers others, then they shouldn't drink.

Doodledog

I think there are different things going on here that are linked but not the same issue.

Kids at a party getting drunk is not ideal, but it happens, and I think that some of the stories are about situations where both parties have behaved regrettably and wake up with dim recollections. Accusations can start flying if one party is getting comments from friends, or parents find out. In these cases, I would say that alcohol education is the way forward. I don't think I would ban it altogether, as I think people need to learn how to handle it in a safe environment. If the first time they drink too much is somewhere unsupervised, then problems are more likely to arise. I'm not sure that in these circumstances labelling a 14 year old a sex offender is helpful.

The situations that are being reported as happening in schools are a different matter. Presumably everyone involved is sober, and it seems from the reports that a frightening number of girls are suffering abuse and inappropriate behaviour. In these cases, it is clearly attitudes that need to be changed. Boys need decent role models, who can get across messages about respecting women, understanding boundaries and so on. I also think that children of both sexes should be taught from an early age that they have autonomy over their bodies, and can say no to being tickled, kissed or whatever and expect to be respected. In this case, there should be serious repercussions for offenders, maybe backed up with courses in observing boundaries, self-control, and similar.

Having said that, I think that things are moving in that direction. I saw a video of my (Great) nephew the other day. He was playing with the dog, who was licking him (all good natured). My nephew was laughing at the dog, and then got sick of it and said 'I don't consent to this', at which point my niece moved the dog away and that was that. My point is less about the dog than the fact that at the age of six he knew that he could stop doing something that he no longer wanted to do, and had the vocabulary to express it. If that sort of thing is taught in schools, children will grow up with a lot more agency than our generations had.

I’m not sure if your post is referring to the anecdote I shared or not, just wondering though, if it is regarding the story I shared about the young boy masturbating and forcing sexual contact, I don’t understand how that boy should not be considered a sex offender? He committed a sexual assault.

Lolo81 I didn't equate groping with girls feeling attractive I asked if girls who haven't been groped would feel they were unattractive. That isn't at all the same thing. There seems to me almost a competative attitude developing about how much a girl has been subjected to. And actually I haven't been groped, or if I have I didn't notice. I always knew I had autonomy over my own body, so I don't see how that is new. Perhaps most girls were raised to feel men have some sort of rights over them, I wasn't.
I've travelled alone to many countries and walked alone in many places. I've sat on beaches alone and swum alone and when I have been approached it was always easy to repel the man with a swift "NO" or whatever the local equivalent was. The men backed off. As I said I know I can give off a "Do not approach" vibe when I wish to and this applies to everyone, male or female.
Oh I've just remembered. Once when I was hitchhiking alone aged about 19 (the risks I took-definitely not recommended) the lorry driver pulled into a lay-by and made a suggestion. I was out of the cab before he could draw breath. I suppose he could have been taking advantage of me. On the other hand I was taking a risk.

That sounds a lot like victim blaming.
I've never been mugged, but I don't assume it's because of my upbringing.

Sounds like victim blaming..

I think some women have to pretend that they give off enough signals or whatever or are strong enough to avoid these situations because to realise it's just luck is too scary to contemplate.

I don't think that girls were/are raised to feel that men have some sort of rights over them. I do however feel that parents are often to blame because they sometimes treat boys differently. Not all, I'm 1 of 4 - 2 of each and we each had to do similar tasks. The boys weren't let off.

When we lived in London the adjacent house was occupied by young, middle class men. The first lot were medical students who were then followed by trainee estate agents and other professionals. They had no consideration for anybody. They put their rubbish out after the dustbin men had done the weekly collection. They would sit around at the top of the house drinking and then throwing the bottles out of the windows. They played music very loudly late at night and well into the early hours. One day I went and knocked at 5.00am and said I quite liked David Bowie but not at hour. The response was, sorry, didn't know that you could hear it.
At that time I blamed their mums who I assume did everything for them.

A very old friend, with a high powered job used to iron 20 shirts and blouses every weekend - 5 for her, 5 for her OH and 10 for the boys. Why she didn't ask them to do it or hang the shirts up when soaking wet to dry without creases, I don't know. The boys left home for uni and had to fend for themselves, and they learned how.

I realise that the last 2 paragraphs don't have any real bearing on the subject, but I do think that many parents think that their children can do no wrong.

A serious point is that whilst children should be taught about pornography, sex, consent etc I suspect that many parents would be opposed to such a lesson. Throughout my adult life there have been news stories about parents objecting to sex education classes, especially from the more religious communities.

In my experience, it's when many boys and men are drunk that they seem to think that anything goes and have more than once had to fight someone off or slap someone when I was grabbed when they were drunk.
No excuse - it's on the same standard as girls that are wearing a short skirt or a low cut top are "asking for it" if they are raped or sexually molested.

Lolo81

Doodledog

I think there are different things going on here that are linked but not the same issue.

Kids at a party getting drunk is not ideal, but it happens, and I think that some of the stories are about situations where both parties have behaved regrettably and wake up with dim recollections. Accusations can start flying if one party is getting comments from friends, or parents find out. In these cases, I would say that alcohol education is the way forward. I don't think I would ban it altogether, as I think people need to learn how to handle it in a safe environment. If the first time they drink too much is somewhere unsupervised, then problems are more likely to arise. I'm not sure that in these circumstances labelling a 14 year old a sex offender is helpful.

The situations that are being reported as happening in schools are a different matter. Presumably everyone involved is sober, and it seems from the reports that a frightening number of girls are suffering abuse and inappropriate behaviour. In these cases, it is clearly attitudes that need to be changed. Boys need decent role models, who can get across messages about respecting women, understanding boundaries and so on. I also think that children of both sexes should be taught from an early age that they have autonomy over their bodies, and can say no to being tickled, kissed or whatever and expect to be respected. In this case, there should be serious repercussions for offenders, maybe backed up with courses in observing boundaries, self-control, and similar.

Having said that, I think that things are moving in that direction. I saw a video of my (Great) nephew the other day. He was playing with the dog, who was licking him (all good natured). My nephew was laughing at the dog, and then got sick of it and said 'I don't consent to this', at which point my niece moved the dog away and that was that. My point is less about the dog than the fact that at the age of six he knew that he could stop doing something that he no longer wanted to do, and had the vocabulary to express it. If that sort of thing is taught in schools, children will grow up with a lot more agency than our generations had.

I’m not sure if your post is referring to the anecdote I shared or not, just wondering though, if it is regarding the story I shared about the young boy masturbating and forcing sexual contact, I don’t understand how that boy should not be considered a sex offender? He committed a sexual assault.

No, it wasn't.

I think lessons about the dangers of porn are really important but I sometimes think we are asking teachers to do things that are almost impossible.

trisher

Lolo81 I didn't equate groping with girls feeling attractive I asked if girls who haven't been groped would feel they were unattractive. That isn't at all the same thing. There seems to me almost a competative attitude developing about how much a girl has been subjected to. And actually I haven't been groped, or if I have I didn't notice. I always knew I had autonomy over my own body, so I don't see how that is new. Perhaps most girls were raised to feel men have some sort of rights over them, I wasn't.
I've travelled alone to many countries and walked alone in many places. I've sat on beaches alone and swum alone and when I have been approached it was always easy to repel the man with a swift "NO" or whatever the local equivalent was. The men backed off. As I said I know I can give off a "Do not approach" vibe when I wish to and this applies to everyone, male or female.
Oh I've just remembered. Once when I was hitchhiking alone aged about 19 (the risks I took-definitely not recommended) the lorry driver pulled into a lay-by and made a suggestion. I was out of the cab before he could draw breath. I suppose he could have been taking advantage of me. On the other hand I was taking a risk.

If a girl not being groped would make her feel unattractive, the obvious conclusion from that statement is that girls who get groped are attractive.

The examples you give are you feeling uncomfortable - you had to say NO! You were in these situations and good for you, you had enough confidence to say no and feel good about it but that’s not the issue. The hitchhiker anecdote and the fact that you have your “do not approach” vibe is proof positive that the risk is there.

You wouldn’t need a do not approach vibe if there wasn’t risk - so that’s my point. Why should women in particular need to hone that skill?

It’s a culturally accepted fact that there is risk, more so for women - that is what has to change.

Do parents still treat boys differently from girls? I didn't when mine were young, nor did anybody else I knew and neither DS and DDiL or any of their friends I have met treated boys differently either.

However what I have heard is several generations of girls being spoken to as if having a boyfriend and attracting male approval is an important part of their self validation and gives them status.

You know the kind of thing, 'Ooh, you will never get a boyfriend, if you act like that' .... 'wear that'. Also constantly talking to girls about when they are married and have children, Grandparents longing to see a grand daughter married and happy, all sorts of talk like that, that boys do not get. Parents may treat the children as equal, but girls still get this kind of talk from adults who should know better.