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Biden does the right thing (although perhaps not for the right reasons)

(57 Posts)
PippaZ Tue 27-Apr-21 08:56:12

From the FT this morning:

US president Joe Biden is this week expected to roll out a series of tax increases on the wealthy, including a near-doubling of levies on capital gains and dividends, in order to fund a new education and child care spending package that could top $1.5tn.

Obviously, as those who have any grasp of MMT will know, this is not going to fund the new education and child care spending package - new money printed by the sovereign state will do that.

However, it has never been just or helpful for some people to pay say 40% on all their earning while some pay 40% on some and only 20% on another proportion of it.

To line up taxation on earned and capital produced income is long overdue. It seems that Biden will do this; it is about time we did the same in our country. This will, in itself, help to tackle inequality. It will narrow the gap between the lowest earners and the highest - the dangerous gap that causes an already unequal society to become even more unequal. It will also help to end the vast amount of tax abuse. If you pay the same on both it is easier to spot the abuse.

I can already hear the screaming from those who have closed their minds to all the explanation about MMT over the last years. Some can give a better explanation than I can but they are more and more explaining to those who just don't want to hear. It may be beyond their comprehension or beyond their politics - who knows - but ignoring the truth is not going to improve the country.

The equality between taxation on income earned from work and income earned from capital is long overdue.

suziewoozie Tue 27-Apr-21 09:21:13

‘The equality between taxation on income earned from work and income earned from capital is long overdue’

This - but to do that we have t do something about NICs .

M0nica Tue 27-Apr-21 09:26:30

I dislike intellectual superiority however it is expressed. How many of you knew immediately what MMT was? If you use terms like that they should either be expanded or explained

So, MMT stands for Modern Monetary Theory. Any the wiser? I doubt it. Here is a reference en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Monetary_Theory. Any the wiser .........?

PippaZ Tue 27-Apr-21 09:30:26

I agree suziewoozie. I have to say I wonder just what valueNI has. It is simply another tax. Perhaps it does have a purpose for flagging up citizenship but it really does little else.

suziewoozie Tue 27-Apr-21 09:31:11

It might be nice to have a discussion where people knew what they were talking about and didn’t need MMT ( or NICs) explaining to them .

suziewoozie Tue 27-Apr-21 09:33:01

PippaZ

I agree suziewoozie. I have to say I wonder just what valueNI has. It is simply another tax. Perhaps it does have a purpose for flagging up citizenship but it really does little else.

But it’s not a mark of citizenship is it but a tax on employed people under SPA and their employers.

PippaZ Tue 27-Apr-21 09:39:27

Why are you attacking me rather than discussing the point that was made M0nica?

I don't feel superior to you but if all you can do is make ad hominem attacks to distract I will feel you have no point of argument.

PippaZ Tue 27-Apr-21 09:40:28

I am happy to agree it is just another tax suziewoozie.

PippaZ Tue 27-Apr-21 09:42:15

So, so far we have just had deflections from the OP. Any thought on that?

MaizieD Tue 27-Apr-21 09:49:08

M0nica

I dislike intellectual superiority however it is expressed. How many of you knew immediately what MMT was? If you use terms like that they should either be expanded or explained

So, MMT stands for Modern Monetary Theory. Any the wiser? I doubt it. Here is a reference en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Monetary_Theory. Any the wiser .........?

As I've made many posts about MMT over the past few years, MOnica, I think quite a few posters will have got the idea if they've read them. And I know that they have been read! I've had comments on them at the time and only yesterday a poster made reference to my familiar postings; a derogatory reference, but a reference that showed that she has read them...

I'm more than happy to do another post about it if people still don't understand it... grin

MaizieD Tue 27-Apr-21 09:56:12

PippaZ

So, so far we have just had deflections from the OP. Any thought on that?

As I agree wholeheartedly with Biden's actions I really don't have any comment to make on it, but, I am constantly surprised that with finite resources available to us on this planet and an ever growing population, a considerable number of people seem to think that it is fair that a tiny percentage of the planet's population can monopolise most of the available resources leaving the rest to make their way as best they can with what is left.

Not only that, but while approving this highly inequitable resource monopoly they are prepared to demonise those who are struggling if they dare to suggest that they might be allowed a larger share.

Whitewavemark2 Tue 27-Apr-21 09:57:11

M0nica

I dislike intellectual superiority however it is expressed. How many of you knew immediately what MMT was? If you use terms like that they should either be expanded or explained

So, MMT stands for Modern Monetary Theory. Any the wiser? I doubt it. Here is a reference en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Monetary_Theory. Any the wiser .........?

Wow, I think your post simply shows that you haven’t been keeping up with the various narratives that have taken place on myriad threads over years of discussion on GN.

I therefore advise if you wish to take part is not to suggest everyone is too dim to understand but to be a bit more humble and admit you don’t and can’t know everything!

Whitewavemark2 Tue 27-Apr-21 10:01:46

pippa it was clear from his pre-election speeches that MMT was going to play a part in his economic management, but I am surprised as to the extent it has done so to date.

I am just off out with my first lunch with a friend for a year😄, so hope this discussion is still going strong when I get back.

PippaZ Tue 27-Apr-21 10:05:11

Yes, Whitewave I am too - but pleased. It should make it harder (I hope) for the Tories to attack the less well off yet again.

Enjoy your lunch.

PippaZ Tue 27-Apr-21 10:11:16

I wonder if the worlds reaction to Covid and the lack of vaccine sharing, etc., will change any of that Maizie. Those left with the sweepings may be very angry and rightfully so. However, India's government seems to have gone for a policy to increase the riches of some while not supplying the vaccine to the people in need so the changes will probably be country by country.

I just hope what Biden is doing changes the swing of politics in other countries, including our own.

Whitewavemark2 Tue 27-Apr-21 10:11:30

The Tories have been forced to adopt a similar policy, but not with the imaginative flair, it will be interesting to see how they explain it away when they try to return to the fiscal conservatism so loved by the Tory right.

Must go😄

Alegrias1 Tue 27-Apr-21 10:17:10

I didn't know what MMT is. I looked it up. Now I'm wiser, thanks M0nica.

Thank you PippaZ for starting a thread about something I can learn about.

suziewoozie Tue 27-Apr-21 11:12:08

Alegrias1

I didn't know what MMT is. I looked it up. Now I'm wiser, thanks M0nica.

Thank you PippaZ for starting a thread about something I can learn about.

I get your point - I’m just fed up at the moment of posts where no knowledge or learning is evidenced.

PippaZ Tue 27-Apr-21 11:19:40

I'm not sure what 'evidence' you want suziewoozie. I did 'evidence' what Biden has decided to do and that was what the OP was about.

This does seem like yet another deflection but that seems to be the GN way.

Alegrias1 Tue 27-Apr-21 11:20:03

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Alegrias1 Tue 27-Apr-21 11:21:47

Sorry if I'm diverting your thread PippaZ (I'm not being sarcastic - it's come to a pretty pass that we have to say that sad)

Suzie I think we're in strenuous agreement smile. If someone starts a thread about something I don't know about, but it sounds interesting, I'll try to find out about it. If somebody posts that everybody knows the moon is made of green cheese, I'll happily get into that fact-based argument!

Alegrias1 Tue 27-Apr-21 11:22:06

Sorry, double post. I'll get one deleted.

Urmstongran Tue 27-Apr-21 11:28:18

Thank you MOnica. I didn’t know what MMT is. Probably none the wiser now to be honest but thank you for calling it out.
😊

MaizieD Tue 27-Apr-21 11:28:41

Alegrias1

I didn't know what MMT is. I looked it up. Now I'm wiser, thanks M0nica.

Thank you PippaZ for starting a thread about something I can learn about.

If you, and anyone else who is interested to know about MMT, have 30 mins to spare this video is really worth watching. It's American, so has to be translated to British institutions and terminology, but the principles remain the same.

The Millennials' Money

www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHQCjFebIf8

lemongrove Tue 27-Apr-21 11:34:20

MaizieD

M0nica

I dislike intellectual superiority however it is expressed. How many of you knew immediately what MMT was? If you use terms like that they should either be expanded or explained

So, MMT stands for Modern Monetary Theory. Any the wiser? I doubt it. Here is a reference en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Monetary_Theory. Any the wiser .........?

As I've made many posts about MMT over the past few years, MOnica, I think quite a few posters will have got the idea if they've read them. And I know that they have been read! I've had comments on them at the time and only yesterday a poster made reference to my familiar postings; a derogatory reference, but a reference that showed that she has read them...

I'm more than happy to do another post about it if people still don't understand it... grin

Yes Monica completely agree with your post.

It seems that if somebody did a degree in economics over 50 years ago they tend to never let anyone forget it.😁
That’s social media for you.

On tax ( not that I’m very interested in other countries and their tax systems) it is only fair to tax the rich more, but not so much that they look for ways to avoid it by investing overseas.
Here in the UK I think we have it about right.