Keir Starmer

Urmstongran

Well it seems the Labour vultures are circling the oh so lovely Starmer. He’s toast already.

Come on, how about the facts that have been posted here for you to see, about Rochdale etc? That’s what you’ve been asked about.
Sorry but your debating style seems to consist of sneering and pretending to be under attack from “the left wing crowd “

Not sure what what the BBC reported has to do with this discussion. AV is not proportional representation. But that was all we were offered. Can't think why Clegg went along with it.

I'm not sure how PR would fare in a referendum now. The British voter seems to really love being sh*t on. Look how the polls rise for Johnson after every fresh revelation of his total incompetence and corruption...

MazieD: I think you are unfairly stereotyping the British voter. Collectively, they may well have more common sense that many in politics. I understand that might be difficult to prove but many in politics don't set the bar very high.

Polls do not have an unblemished record and mid-term, they are never proven or disproven. I suspect many people will make their voting decision when they have to, not before. I also suspect many will make up their minds on the least-bad option; but, even so, Starmer has plenty of work to do.

With everything else on our plates and an uncertain outlook, I imagine PR would not register on many people's political Richter scale. I did not introduce the topic and am happy to let it go.

I wouldn’t know how to ‘sneer’ Lucca. It really isn’t in my nature. But then I have to remember you don’t know me.
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Urmstongran

I wouldn’t know how to ‘sneer’ Lucca. It really isn’t in my nature. But then I have to remember you don’t know me.
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True. But we can only judge people by how they put themselves across on the forum. And having fun and games on a thread about a programme that you said yourself you have no intention of ever watching doesn’t show you in the best light. Why even bother to take part in the discussion if it isn’t to just stir things up —cause trouble—

PippaZ

Ilovecheese

Three months ago he thought it would be wrong to raise corporation tax. Glad to see he has changed his mind.

Where has he said that?

PippaZ
I am sorry not to have got back to you sooner.

An article in The Independent on 24th Feb 2021 stated:
"Labour says it will oppose any hikes in corporation tax on big business, in an extraordinary political reversal ahead of next week’s Budget."

That is where I got the info from. I am very pleased if this is either not true or that he has changed his mind.

MayBee70

Urmstongran

I wouldn’t know how to ‘sneer’ Lucca. It really isn’t in my nature. But then I have to remember you don’t know me.
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True. But we can only judge people by how they put themselves across on the forum. And having fun and games on a thread about a programme that you said yourself you have no intention of ever watching doesn’t show you in the best light. Why even bother to take part in the discussion if it isn’t to just stir things up —cause trouble—

And to pass on untrue accusations. 'Opinion' based on a falsehood deserves to be called out.

Yes, fair comment. I have never sneered though. As I say, not my nature. I have a sunny (irritatingly so) disposition.

Well, can you just be irritatingly sunny on threads that you’re actually interested in then? (I say this with a huge grin on my face which makes it acceptable by the way....)

Urmstongran

I wouldn’t know how to ‘sneer’ Lucca. It really isn’t in my nature. But then I have to remember you don’t know me.
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Urmstongran
Well it seems the Labour vultures are circling the oh so lovely Starmer. He’s toast already.

What’s this then ?

Not sneering Lucca. I was saying that for all most on here think he’s lovely, kind, well educated, professional, measured, biding his time etc. that the Labour Party are getting restless and looking at alternatives for Leader. Diane Abbott announced this week just that. Which is why I said he is toast.

Lucca

Urmstongran

I wouldn’t know how to ‘sneer’ Lucca. It really isn’t in my nature. But then I have to remember you don’t know me.
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Urmstongran
Well it seems the Labour vultures are circling the oh so lovely Starmer. He’s toast already.

What’s this then ?

I think that was just one of Mystic Ug's inimitable cheery prophecies.

Like the 'Trump is going to win the 2020 Presidential Election' one.

I can’t be right 100% of the time ... ?

I still what to know what NHS job his wife does

Urmstongran

I can’t be right 100% of the time ... ?

Ah, it's lovely to agree with you for once ;)

greenlady102

I still what to know what NHS job his wife does

You could google like everyone else, but to save you the trouble; she is a trained solicitor, now working in Occupational Health for NHS.

Parliment is irrelevant as Boris is autocratic and government

In a proper democracy parliment would be answerable to the people.

You see Monarchy gives government too much power no checks or balances.

Also heard lots people are apathetic not wanting to vote because of FPTP your vote doesn't count, most countries have PR This is something to Campaign for.

In France there was demonstrations every week until they won what they asked for government gave in.

Here because of monarchy, parliment, government not properly democratic no written constitution, people just accept this, no fight in them unlike the French.

Keir is not cutting through with people. Labour is irrelevant.

If PR has created a people's democracy in France, why does it take demonstrations every week to get what 'the people' want? I suspect most people in England and elsewhere don't want to be lead by the nose by activists representing a faction but rather by a government. It would, of course, be nice if once the people have voted, say in a Referendum, if Parliament accepted the result.

I agree that there are different ways to elect our representatives which can be sensibly debated. A new thread would be appropriate for such a discussion. I suspect no system is perfect. Democracy is not perfect but, as Churchill said, just preferable to anything that has been tried to date.

As for the Brits having 'no fight in them unlike the French', I suspect there are many grand parents with a view of 20th century history that might find that rather ironic.

To make an impact, Kier Starmer needs to repair the damage done in the Referendum campaign. People unfairly, cynically and insidiously branded as old, gullible, stupid and racist are unlikely to flock to your side. Starmer needs to listen, understand and talk, not preach, to the people. We need sensible government and opposition who debate, not debase. OK, that's pie in the sky, but we need re-adjustment, not revolution.

Cunco:
It would, of course, be nice if once the people have voted, say in a Referendum, if Parliament accepted the result. [Sat 05-Jun-21 09:06:13]

I expect they would if the result had not been based on lies. To reach agreement all arguments put forward need to be based on the truth. This government doesn't know the meaning of the word and they are the Brexit government, drawn from the Vote Leave camp who didn't care for truth either.

You will not persuade anyone until you accept that we need truth.

Remainers (or more lately ‘Rejoiners’) will never get over the shock of Brexit. They were complacent, didn’t bother to get out to vote in big enough numbers (Glastonbury was calling!) and were blindsided by the determination of those who wanted to Leave but could only dare hope. The rest, as they say, is history.

PippaZ: We all see the world through our own eyes but my truth is that Remain should have argued the case for the UK remaining permanently within a future United States of Europe. It is a debate we should have been having over 40 years but sadly, Parliament and the majority of the people diverged over what was decided in 1975.

I am old enough to have voted Leave twice and my views reflect the attitudes of Tony Benn and Michael Foot on Europe as much as anyone in the modern era. I can see an argument for being within a political, economic and social union but I have never been convinced it will work well or that we should lock future generations into a union with no way out.

To me, that should have been the debate. I suspect Remain thought it was an argument it could not win so veered towards Project Fear and branding Remainers as virtuous, tolerant and open, implying (or, in some cases, stating) that Leavers were the reverse. The latter is a society-splitting insult which has played against Labour and the Liberal Democrats ever since.

I think the Referendum was totally mishandled from start to finish by an inept and complacent Parliament. I think the campaign on all sides failed to debate the real issue.

Bringing this back to the topic, I think Starmer would be better placed to understand why the majority of people rejected the concept of a United States of Europe than thinking they were all stupid, gullible, racist proles. Once that is understood, he and his colleagues might cut more ice with the public.

Urmstongran

Remainers (or more lately ‘Rejoiners’) will never get over the shock of Brexit. They were complacent, didn’t bother to get out to vote in big enough numbers (Glastonbury was calling!) and were blindsided by the determination of those who wanted to Leave but could only dare hope. The rest, as they say, is history.

Tell me why Remainers (or more lately ‘Rejoiners’) will never get over the shock of Brexit. Urmstongran? It isn't true but then "Brexiteers" belong to a clique who don't think truth matters, don't they. It's just another childish lie. Maybe they think it must be true because they still see themselves as Brexiteers and assume no one else can move on if they can't.

The truth is we all now live in the brave new world they lied us into. We all have to make the best of it and I doubt blaming those who voted differently to you, Urmtongran, will last you for long. You will, eventually, have to live with the changes and it is noticeable how some of the foremost Brexiteers and Brexiteer groups are now backsliding on the things they said were vital.

Those who still call themselves Brexiteer's are ignorant in my eyes, still thinking childish games will mean they "win" and let's face it winning is far more important to them than the truth. They made it; they should now be making it work not tearing the country even further apart and scrapping like school children in the playgroun at every chance. Did they never grow up? It seems that even though those who voted against leaving the EU can see that it has happened those who voted for it are still fighting old battles.

Cunco Sat 05-Jun-21 10:51:03 Thanks for such a thoughtful post.

Of course they were not all stupid, gullible, racist proles but we saw very few arguments put a you put yours and, I'm afraid, if people continue to trumpet the fact that they were "Brexiteers" I shall probably continue to think they do fall into that catagory.

It really is time to move on and deal with the hand we have been dealt.

Just to add an answer to your last paragraph Cunco where you say I think Starmer would be better placed to understand why the majority of people rejected the concept of a United States of Europe

I find Starmer interesting in the way I found Corbyn interesting but Corbyn pretty much managed to convince me that the Labour Party had exhausted it's 1940s role but not changed fundementally from it.

Grany

Parliment is irrelevant as Boris is autocratic and government

In a proper democracy parliment would be answerable to the people.

You see Monarchy gives government too much power no checks or balances.

Also heard lots people are apathetic not wanting to vote because of FPTP your vote doesn't count, most countries have PR This is something to Campaign for.

In France there was demonstrations every week until they won what they asked for government gave in.

Here because of monarchy, parliment, government not properly democratic no written constitution, people just accept this, no fight in them unlike the French.

Keir is not cutting through with people. Labour is irrelevant.

Grany the French government always capitulate when there are any demonstrations from the public ( or certain elements of the public) even when they should stand firm at times.
It may be connected to the French Revolution.?