Who gives a t*ss?

AC pointing the finger at the electorate/British public saying we don't give a toss.

Well now, if you’re asked to respect and give credence to an opinion, doesn’t it have to come from someone whose judgement you respect?

If it comes from someone whose been known to lie and deceive, can any of his statements be trusted?

Why would anyone give Alastair Campbell headspace? Let alone quote him?

Surely you approve of the big Tech Companies being held to account over their tax payments, or is it just because the deal has been done under a Conservative Government that brings out the sarcasm?

I would be pleased if Big Tech can be held to account over their tax payments. Not because it means 'more money for the exchequer, but because it means that money can be shared around more fairly.

I assumed that you were mentioning it with a belief that it would mean that higher tax revenues would avert some cuts in state spending. Which it won't. It won't because taxation isn't necessary for state spending. The UK is not a household which can only spend what it 'earns'.It can create its own money without fear, so long as there is something to spend it on.

We haven't 'borrowed' the bulk of the extraordinary covid related expenditure. It's money 'created' by the BoE. We don't have to pay it back. Cuts in state spending will come, and they will come not because they are necessary (in fact, they are self defeating as they depress the economy rather than grow it) but because Sunak and the tories are ideologically committed to 'small state' & minimal public spending.

Peasblossom

Well now, if you’re asked to respect and give credence to an opinion, doesn’t it have to come from someone whose judgement you respect?

If it comes from someone whose been known to lie and deceive, can any of his statements be trusted?

Why would anyone give Alastair Campbell headspace? Let alone quote him?

Well, what you are saying could be even more applicable to Johnson, Peaseblossom. Plus, he's responsible for about the same number of deaths in 1 year.

Peasblossom

Well now, if you’re asked to respect and give credence to an opinion, doesn’t it have to come from someone whose judgement you respect?

If it comes from someone whose been known to lie and deceive, can any of his statements be trusted?

Why would anyone give Alastair Campbell headspace? Let alone quote him?

No one is asking you to respect it or give credence to AC but you - or shall we say a reasonable and reasoning person - can still discuss the argument put forward, take it apart and point out where it is wrong - or not.

You won't, of course, if you are one of the people he describes as one of the Not Giving a Tossers because, as he describes, truth doesn't matter to those people it's all about the personality - which is exactly why I was saying they had pinpointed themselves on the first few pages.

People who have done something we disapprove of can still make a perfectly reasoned argument about other things just as those who stand out for the good they do can put forward poor arguments. But the first replies were all about the personality involved. It said everything we needed to know about those posting the replies to AC's argument. They just stood up and fitted the profile.

The way AC has proudly written in his diaries about the way he and TB ogled young women and categorised other women into nags and menopausal. He was called out on his sexism by his own daughter but refused to think there is anything wrong with his attitude. Him and Blair repulse me and if i don't give a toss about politics anymore it is there actions.
They were hope in 1997.
They didn't behave any better than BoJo does.
I hate them more than I hate Thatcher and have done for 20 years. I hate Blair's voice when i hear him sticking his oar in we don't care what he thinks. Disgusting little creep in his high step shoes.

That still doesn't mean that the OP was not the thing we were asked to discuss. Discussing personalities is exactly what put people in the category he calls a Not Giving a Tossers.

If you think this is not the case discuss what he says in the article, not his or anyone else's personality.

PippaZ

That still doesn't mean that the OP was not the thing we were asked to discuss. Discussing personalities is exactly what put people in the category he calls a Not Giving a Tossers.

If you think this is not the case discuss what he says in the article, not his or anyone else's personality.

PippaZ my point is if I am being categorised by him as a not giving a tosser i lay the blame for that at his and sidekick Bliars feet.
I aren't discussing personalities i have pointed out actions that he and sidekick did that made me a not giving a tosser. Because in 2019 they and many Labour MPs undermined the leader at every opportunity. They all handed the landslide victory to Boris and were glad just as much as the right wing press so it utterly sticks in my throat i think he himself through his actions is also in the not giving a tosser.
On 13th December 2019 i gave up hope of this country ever being right again. The light has gone out on the Labour Party and mostly because of his and Blairs actions.

Whatdayisit

PippaZ

That still doesn't mean that the OP was not the thing we were asked to discuss. Discussing personalities is exactly what put people in the category he calls a Not Giving a Tossers.

If you think this is not the case discuss what he says in the article, not his or anyone else's personality.

PippaZ my point is if I am being categorised by him as a not giving a tosser i lay the blame for that at his and sidekick Bliars feet.
I aren't discussing personalities i have pointed out actions that he and sidekick did that made me a not giving a tosser. Because in 2019 they and many Labour MPs undermined the leader at every opportunity. They all handed the landslide victory to Boris and were glad just as much as the right wing press so it utterly sticks in my throat i think he himself through his actions is also in the not giving a tosser.
On 13th December 2019 i gave up hope of this country ever being right again. The light has gone out on the Labour Party and mostly because of his and Blairs actions.

It seems to be another cultural change that the blame is laid on others rather than taking responsibility but then his description of NGaTs is that they don't take responsibility, isn't it? Often the blame is laid at one or another politicians door while the citizen concerned does nothing, just transfers his or her accountability to someone else.

Blaming others is a very defensive move - cowardly? - in some circumstances certainly. In doing this you are passing any power you have to someone else - just what today's politicians hope for. Then they will lie and let you down and you will blame some other human beings.

Where is your self-esteem; no one made you blame someone else. You have put yourself in this unhealthy place and yet, and yet, you are prepared to come and complain about those you have passed your power to on a grandparents forum! Maybe you are beyond help. I have no idea but I do not accept the passing of your responsibility as something forced on you. You chose it; you hold the responsibility for what happens because of it.

Oh ok. Thankyou for that PippaZ yes i am choosing to put the responsibility of the failings of The Labour Party on those who put themselves forward, and, got paid a lot of money,to do the job. NGT i obviously can be labelled.

Not while you are still willing to discuss Whatdayisit . My biggest worry about the change to a nation of personality praisers and blamers is that you lose any sense of agency. Those people have gone but you have given up trying to make the current people be the best we can have in the common interest.

The most difficult thing to get hold of when we feel assaulted in some way is that we cannot change the other person; we can only change how we view them. That means we take back the ability to go forward in life not live in the past.

Ah, but those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.

I remember the lies that were told to engage us in war, I remember demonstrating “Not in my name” and I remember the contempt shown by Campbell and the then Government for our concern and for the lives of others.

In my opinion he has no place to talk of others “not giving a toss” as if he does. Why is he so concerned now, when he didn’t give a toss then?

He totally lacks credibility and does any discussion of the issues of the pandemic a disservice. Who would want to be allied with the likes of Campbell?

No one is saying don't remember it Peasblossom - just don't remain in it.

This is what you seem to be doing so that all you can talk about is something that happened nearly 20 years ago, not what is happening now. Do you think your little rant has changed the past one iota? If not it's a waste of energy. I wish it hadn't happened too, just as I wish things had been different under other PMs.

It was wrong but it is time to acknowledge that and move on and not dwell. The only person you harm or even change by doing that is yourself.

If it was somebody different saying these things it might bear some credibility.

You don’t put any faith in a man who is known to be a liar, neither do I.

It’s not a rant. I don’t trust liars. It’s that simple.

Or do you think he’s really changed and we should all listen to what he has to say now, because this time it will be the truth?

He does truth no service by pretending to be on its side.

But it isn't Peasblossom. It either is credible or isn't credible in its own right, but to understand that you need to at least think about it and probably discuss it.

No, I don't put much faith in those who have lied to us but I do try to look at each utterance with an open mind. We are human. Liars do not lie all the time and generally truthful people do not always tell the truth so we need to judge each speech or writing at the moment.

Anyway, you are determined to live in the past and I am determined not to so I will continue with today, not yesterday. It doesn't mean that I haven't taken what I have learned about human beings in general with me as I go but I will not dwell there.

I would have hoped that the left leaning politicians and would be influencers would have learned the lessons of past elections?

Talking down to or being dismissive of the electorate is not the correct way to garner votes or support.

By AC alleging that a section of the electorate don’t give a toss he is ignoring any views and or opinions they may have.

But we have just discovered many don't offer views. You have come on here, as does Peasblossom, just to talk personality and how people have been in the past.

I don't see you starting a conversation about the new tax rules agreed by the G7 - which is about now and our future. It's all about the personality not about the policy GrannyGravy13 and that is soul-destroying and does make it look as if some do not give a toss about what is happening to others or our country in general.

I am not going to be drawn into he said/she did arguments of long ago so unless you are talking about the text of the OP I will leave you to wallow together in the past.

Yes the squeaky clean Campbell who NEVER once advised his leader to Lie to the British public who by the way has never apologised for the deaths he sent young people to

PippaZ

But we have just discovered many don't offer views. You have come on here, as does Peasblossom, just to talk personality and how people have been in the past.

I don't see you starting a conversation about the new tax rules agreed by the G7 - which is about now and our future. It's all about the personality not about the policy GrannyGravy13 and that is soul-destroying and does make it look as if some do not give a toss about what is happening to others or our country in general.

I am not going to be drawn into he said/she did arguments of long ago so unless you are talking about the text of the OP I will leave you to wallow together in the past.

Wrong again (it’s becoming a habit)

I posted about the G7 agreeing new corporation tax for tech companies on this very thread yesterday.

Like I said to MaizieD please continue to post my thoughts as you obviously know them (not)

You cannot keep dismissing yesterday's people/MP’s when they are constantly being rolled out on mainstream TV news programs, we were subjected to Tony Blair’s views on Andrew Marr only this morning.

But isn’t Alastair Campbell to pontificate living in the past? Isnt he trying to recapture a time when he had influence.

Why quote the opinions of a man of the past unless you have some hankering for it yourself. Nostalgia for the days of power.

It’s going to take something other than Alastair Campbell to bring in a Labour Government. Where are today’s people? Keeping their heads down.?

I apologize if my original post (Sat 05-Jun-21 10:05:43 ) was confusing: it was a hasty post. It seemed to me that several posters did not want to debate AC's opinions and discuss whether they were fair, instead they wanted to revisit his own 'sins'.

He was called a liar by GrannyGravy13 (Fri 04-Jun-21 14:10:23): ”He is a liar and a complete charlatan with an axe to grind.”
Hence my comment ”Even a lier sometimes tells the truth”.

My post echoed MaizieD's (Fri 04-Jun-21 15:22:20): "So where is Campbell lying in this article?

”Everything he says about Johnson is true. It's quite amusing that people are whatabouting about one instance of lying in defence of the most persistent and shameless liar we have ever had as PM...”

There was a lot of whataboutery on this thread.

growstuff

Such considerations don't appear to matter these days Lucca.

I wonder if Johnson's mistakes and misdemeanours should be wheeled out every time he opens his mouth.

But they are growstuff over and over again daily on multiple threads on GN

GrannyGravy13

PippaZ

But we have just discovered many don't offer views. You have come on here, as does Peasblossom, just to talk personality and how people have been in the past.

I don't see you starting a conversation about the new tax rules agreed by the G7 - which is about now and our future. It's all about the personality not about the policy GrannyGravy13 and that is soul-destroying and does make it look as if some do not give a toss about what is happening to others or our country in general.

I am not going to be drawn into he said/she did arguments of long ago so unless you are talking about the text of the OP I will leave you to wallow together in the past.

Wrong again (it’s becoming a habit)

I posted about the G7 agreeing new corporation tax for tech companies on this very thread yesterday.

Like I said to MaizieD please continue to post my thoughts as you obviously know them (not)

You cannot keep dismissing yesterday's people/MP’s when they are constantly being rolled out on mainstream TV news programs, we were subjected to Tony Blair’s views on Andrew Marr only this morning.

But I am not the one dismissing what people say today because of what they did yesterday GrannyGravy13. I think these people still have something to say. Sometimes I may agree and sometimes I may not but it was not me who dismissed them because of something that happened decades ago.

I will avoid the schadenfreude that you seem to delight in.

GrannyGravy13

growstuff

Such considerations don't appear to matter these days Lucca.

I wonder if Johnson's mistakes and misdemeanours should be wheeled out every time he opens his mouth.

But they are growstuff over and over again daily on multiple threads on GN

As they should be until people recognise that there is at least an element of truth in the recounting of Johnson's lies. Many of which are well documented, yet people still don't accept them.