A question

Galaxy

Yes I have heard those rumours as well Grannygravy, what is going on in Batley and Spen is beyond words to be honest. I am not sure who I am most angry with.

I think the person I’m furious with is George Galloway. I don’t understand why people aren’t showing videos of him on Big Brother. How anyone can vote for him is beyond me but the far left of the party are desperate for Labour to lose. Want John McDonnell to be leader from what I’ve heard.

MayBee70

Galaxy

Yes I have heard those rumours as well Grannygravy, what is going on in Batley and Spen is beyond words to be honest. I am not sure who I am most angry with.

I think the person I’m furious with is George Galloway. I don’t understand why people aren’t showing videos of him on Big Brother. How anyone can vote for him is beyond me but the far left of the party are desperate for Labour to lose. Want John McDonnell to be leader from what I’ve heard.

If Labour goes to the far left I think,they are handing any coming elections to the Conservatives for the foreseeable future.

(Just my opinion of course)

The far left still haven’t got their heads round the fact that they keep losing elections. Even staunch Conservatives must feel we need a strong opposition.

Chestnut

MaizieD

Chestnut

Thank you GrannyGravy13. They just can't accept that the Tories keep winning elections and are staying ahead of Labour despite everything.

The tories didn't win the 2017 election, nor the 2010 election, so that's only two out of the four recent ones. Before that I seem to recall 13 years of perfectly competent Labour governments. I don't know what you're on, but it seems to be having an effect...

No-one was willing to risk voting Labour in for 2010 and 2017! I think Cameron and May were both Conservative PMs.
As for 13 years of 'perfectly competent' Labour governments, I can't agree with that.

2010 tory government was a coalition; the tories hadn't won enough seats to govern on their won. It could just as equally have been a Labour/LibDem coalition.

In 2017 Labour (who no-one was willing to vote for according to you) overturned an massive tory lead in the polls to leave them (the tories) with not enough seats to form a government. May only managed to hang on to power with the support of the DUP.

These two results were not the tories greatest moments.

As for your (and lemon's) opinion of Labour government from 1997 to 2010 I doubt very much if either of you could tell me what was incompetent about it apart from the 'Iraq War' mantra.

I actually think that persuading the country to participate in an illegal war is quite a good indication of competence, even if mis applied..

MayBee70

The far left still haven’t got their heads round the fact that they keep losing elections. Even staunch Conservatives must feel we need a strong opposition.

Yes we do need a strong and credible opposition whoever is in Government.

MayBee70

The far left still haven’t got their heads round the fact that they keep losing elections. Even staunch Conservatives must feel we need a strong opposition.

They're still riding on the 2017 GE result and talking it up as proof that the country want a socialist government. I think that they actually had a point, at the time.

Unfortunately, once the Right Wing Establishment realised that Labour was a very real threat they ran that Vote Leave type campaign on Corbyn with stunning success.

I do wish that the left wing would learn to be more pragmatic, though. They need Labour to be in power before any radical change can happen. They should take a lesson from Joe Biden who ran a 'don't frighten the horses' campaign and turned more radical once he was in power...

Yes I was very pleasantly surprised by Biden.

In the case of the Iraq war MaizieD it was not only incompetent but disastrous for the people of Iraq.It should never have been entered into and there was no end game, no plan for after the initial attacks.Yes, the US was to blame but so was Tony Blair.

Labour does have a chance with Starmer as Leader, but none at all with a more left leaning candidate.I cannot think of anyone in the Shadow Cabinet who would have more appeal to the public, certainly not Dawn Butler or Angela Raynor!

MaizieD Can you tell me what fraction of the social housing stock (i.e. council houses) was sold off under the Labour government between 1997 and 2010?
Was this a positive thing for the less fortunate in society - the people Labour claim to look out for. Was it not a popular vote winning policy? They handled this 'competently' I guess, if you bought a cheap house. Young families today might not see it that way now.

lemongrove

In the case of the Iraq war MaizieD it was not only incompetent but disastrous for the people of Iraq.It should never have been entered into and there was no end game, no plan for after the initial attacks.Yes, the US was to blame but so was Tony Blair.

Labour does have a chance with Starmer as Leader, but none at all with a more left leaning candidate.I cannot think of anyone in the Shadow Cabinet who would have more appeal to the public, certainly not Dawn Butler or Angela Raynor!

But didn’t parliament vote for it. So shouldn’t all parties be held responsible? I do agree there should have been a post war plan for Iraq but Tony Blair seems to have taken the whole blame for it.

And Blair helped bring about peace in Yugoslavia. And also Ireland. Something that Johnson seems hell bent on destroying. The evil that men do etc etc……

Yes MayBee parliament did vote for it and I agree that all parties were responsible for the disaster.

They voted for it in Parliament because Blair talked up the risks of not going to war.As we know, there were dodgy dossiers at play, but Blair really wanted to keep President Bush onside, he seemed to be in awe of him.
Am sure if Blair could go back in time and undo it he would do but the fact was that he was PM and ultimately responsible.

25Avalon

Lucca would you rather he was still there? I thought not. I reckon Javid should do a good job. We shall see.

Why are you asking me that ?? Of course I wouldn’t prefer him to be still in office. He is a disgrace.
I don’t understand your post at all.

MaizieD As for your (and lemon's) opinion of Labour government from 1997 to 2010 I doubt very much if either of you could tell me what was incompetent about it apart from the 'Iraq War' mantra.
Oh my goodness! I'm afraid that cannot come under this thread which is about the Conservatives. It would require a whole new thread which would no doubt be even more volatile than this one!

The Iraq war is a complete red herring when talking about the competence of Labour governments.

But isn't it a useful deflection?

Now tell me about the rest of Labour's supposed incompetence. All of it please, not just cherrypicked moments...

Chestnut

MaizieD As for your (and lemon's) opinion of Labour government from 1997 to 2010 I doubt very much if either of you could tell me what was incompetent about it apart from the 'Iraq War' mantra.
Oh my goodness! I'm afraid that cannot come under this thread which is about the Conservatives. It would require a whole new thread which would no doubt be even more volatile than this one!

Well, go on then. Start one.

*MaizieD in the interests of accuracy, I think your comments regarding the 2010 and 2017 GEs are a overly generous to the Labour party. In 2010 the Conservatives required 19 more seats for a majority and Labour needed another 68, in 2017 the Conservatives needed another 9 and Labour another 64. They were both hung parliaments but Labour was a long way from gaining a majority.

I think the main problem for both parties is that within their own MPs and party structure there is division, not entirely around Brexit but also in terms of policy and that division is also in the population of voters too. It's no longer clear what the parties stand for and voters don't fall into neat groups.

I never claimed that either result was near to giving Labour a majority; just that a tory government wasn't inevitable. And that 2017 gave the Establishment a nasty fright.

It's no longer clear what the parties stand for and voters don't fall into neat groups.

It's absolutely clear what the tory government stands for and it isn't the wellbeing of the UK..

Let's just remember that the Liberal Democrats opposed the Iraq war.

But where does integrity get you in UK politics?

Nowhere- unless we campaign for democracy and scrap this antidemocratic rule by minority that is FPTP.

As I said, the evil that men do etc. All people talk about with the LibDems is the coalition. Whereas nothing seems to stick to the Conservatives. Why is that? Is it because it’s expected of them whereas when other parties make a mistake people are shocked?

I think we know why MayBee it is the influence of the right wing media. I remember being told many years ago that a LibDem Press Officer issued a Press release to all national newspapers, most of whom just ignored it but the political correspondent of The Sun did actually contact him to say "as far as our paper is concerned, your party does not exist, so don';t bother sending us anything"

Just reading some commentators who seem to be of the opinion, that the tide is turning against the government and interviewers were showing real anger at people like Brandon Lewis and other government bids that were wheeled in.

I'll not hold my breath, WwMk2

Your post at 18:17 just showed up in my timeline varian, but it made me think of something that happened in Scotland this week. A monument to the International Brigade was vandalised and a man and his son cleaned it up, just because they thought it needed doing. The Sun tweeted them and asked for pictures and quotes. The man was very polite to the journalist but told them where to stick it, that he didn't want anything to do with the Sun because of its politics and approach to journalism. A good example to his son twice over.