A question

foxie48. I totally take your point about offering an alternative.

But as the OP I think that it is essential to point out the shortcomings of political parties. Of course supporters will not like the fact that the party is being criticised, particularly if they will have real difficulty defending the actions of the party.

Not to bring theses issues to our attention will not make any sense on a political forum as at its heart politics is about alternative world views and critique of one point of view as against another.

That is at its simplest. But of course it goes far deeper than that and impinges on our fundamental beliefs of morals, religion, humanity etc

I understand that what you are talking about is tribal. And I also understand that unless one has an open mind it is very difficult to change. So I don’t think that criticism turns people off - it is in fact their tribal loyalties that brings them together. You can see this time after time on GN.

But for those interested in politics it is a fascinating exercise to look for that final argument. Haven’t found it yet though?

But foxie48's polite post makes one rather important statement; that all the parties are arguing about policies. Don’t you expect that? Don’t you expect a properly functioning political party to have discussions about their policies, especially when we are at least 3 years from another GE?

I thought foxie48's post said the opposite, that they are arguing about things other than policy:

We need strong and effective political parties but sadly they all seem to spend more time arguing amongst themselves than they do thinking about policy.

I could have misunderstood.

No, I think you're right Call. Apologies foxie48! That'll teach me.

Now, let's turn this into a teaching moment. When you get something wrong, own it and apologise. Don't keep saying just wait, it'll be fine

My last 2 paras still hold though.

Alegrias1 if those are people's views about the Conservatives, there really isn't any point in trying to reason with them.

Educate me.

On what facts are the OPs question based. There has been a lot of accusations and conjecture in the media. Has any real wrongdoing been proven?

We all saw Cummings lie last year and this was clearly wrong, though technically he didn't hold office(?)

There was an enquiry into Boris's decorating expenses. Apparently the over budget part did get paid for but not by the tax payer.

Clear evidence of Matt Hancock's impropriety so he resigned.

Various enquiries into awarding of contracts - not aware of any breach of the law.

Giving jobs to mates - what do people expect? Wouldn't you appoint someone who thinks like you, someone you could trust? All governments do this.

Waste of tax-payers money - is this with regard to the money the government has been throwing at COVID? How do you fight a pandemic?

As I said I keep a cursory view on politics so if I've missed something please enlighten. I believe there are appropriate checks and balances such that we keep honest and fair government.

Well there's a long list HolySox so I'll just cite the ones I can do off the top of my head.

Bullying - Patel shown in an inquiry to have broken the Ministerial Code by bullying her staff, normally a resigning affair. She didn't resign, still in office.

Rule Breaking - Johnson incorrectly declared a holiday to the Caribbean that was paid for by a supporter.

Waste of public money - a £37bn Test and Trace system that doesn't work, when very effective local systems were already in place.

Nepotism - giving the responsibility for that Track and Trace to Tory Peer Dido Harding who showed no aptitude for the post and has failed miserably.

I'm not sure how I'd class Gove using money targeted for COVID surveys to ask about attitudes to independence in Scotland? Utter disregard for any rules, maybe?

That'll do to be going on with.

Law breaking:

Unlawful (i.e illegal) prorogation of Parliament in Oct 2019

Unlawful award of PPE contracts and unlawful disregard of procurement procedures

(lots of detail here: goodlawproject.org/ )

Flouting the Freedom of Information rules

www.opendemocracy.net/en/freedom-of-information/uk-parliament-to-investigate-michael-goves-orwellian-foi-unit/

Some good points.

I read Ms Patel may be facing a court hearing regarding constructive dismissal over her bullying. I hate bullies and if proven hopefully this will address this! Checks and balances.

I have no idea how a givernment can spend £37 bn on a software package / tracking system in just a couple of months but found this link.
fullfact.org/online/37bn-test-trace-spending/
This makes sense. It's a budget, much not spent. I would expect rushing a new system into operation will have teething problems... so no surprises there. Looks like the budget is being used effectively now with recent events in the North West.

Dido Harding was chairwoman of NHS Improvement with a background in business so could be seen as a reasonable choice - at the time.

Boris's holiday - not illegal just another 'oversight' (to be fair a PM should do better, but then we knew he is a bit 'cavalier)'

Don't like Gove. He's a 'squeaky clean' creep so happy to think the worst in him ... but I could be wrong.

Really playing Devil's advocate here... but I'm not convinced our government has lost the plot completely. The big challenge now is to restore 'normal life', get the economy back to strength whilst minimising loss of life to COVID. Don't envy their job but perhaps we need a 'strong' government to make these difficult decisions. Maybe that's what the OP question really is - do we have confidence in our government. I'm still happy they will deliver despite their faults.

Sorry quote thing didn't work last post was response to Alegrias and thanks for list. Thanks to * MaizieD* as well for her reminders.

Patel's checks and balances were in place last year, in the past any other person would already have resigned or been sacked. Johnson doesn't think its a big deal.

I think quibbling over "has been spent" and "have committed to spending" is scraping the barrel a bit

Boris's holiday - if paid for by a supporter, needs to be declared to avoid accusations of impropriety. Guess what? There have been accusations of impropriety. I don't want my PM to be cavalier. Which is code for "improper and careless".

Dido Harding has no credibility in the world of business outside the Tory party and the Jockey Club. I speak from experience.

However, we seem to agree on Gove

And lastly - I wouldn't trust them to deliver the milk.

We will never know what kind of mess Labour would have made of dealing with Brexit and the pandemic at the same time. To be honest, it's probably the most demanding period in history since the last war, so would anyone have got it right? Being PM during a period like that would be enough to bring most people to their knees. Boris still seems to be standing ?

Boris's holiday - not illegal just another 'oversight' (to be fair a PM should do better, but then we knew he is a bit 'cavalier)'

Sorry, Holysox, but why should we 'be fair' to Johnson? He's been in politics, as Mayor of London and as an MP and Minister of State, for a considerable time now. He should be well aware of the rules. And as PM, the one who supposedly wrote this in his Foreword to the Ministerial Code:

To fulfil this mission, and win back the trust of the British people, we must uphold the very highest standards of propriety – and this code sets out how we must do so.

There must be no bullying and no harassment; no leaking; no breach of collective responsibility. No misuse of taxpayer money and no actual or perceived conflicts of interest.

^The precious principles of public life enshrined
in this document – integrity, objectivity, accountability, transparency, honesty and leadership in the public interest – must be honoured at all times; as must the political impartiality of our much admired civil service.^

we must surely expect him to respect the code and set the highest example of the qualities required?

Chestnut

We will never know what kind of mess Labour would have made of dealing with Brexit and the pandemic at the same time. To be honest, it's probably the most demanding period in history since the last war, so would anyone have got it right? Being PM during a period like that would be enough to bring most people to their knees. Boris still seems to be standing ?

I think you just have very low standards/expectations, Chestnut.

There are other national leaders around who have dealt far more effectively with the pandemic.

When people ridicule and insult on a personal level, do they not realize it says everything about them but nothing about who they are ridiculing?

LoveOc I am not sure that anyone on this thread has ridiculed or insulted on a personal level, it is just a question of trying to establish how far people are prepared to shelve their own standards in order to keep their party of choice in government. I do think that when posters start complaining about other posters it is all about deflection, avoiding answering the original question.

MaizieD There are other national leaders around who have dealt far more effectively with the pandemic.
I said Brexit AND the pandemic. Both major issues which require major attention!
Maybe you can name these leaders who have done so well just dealing with the one issue.

He brought BREXIT on himself and all the rest of us. He doesn't get brownie points for managing that, sorry.

Other leaders? Ardern. Biden. Merkel.

I think there’s been some sort of mass hypnotism taken place whereby, no matter what the government and it’s members do, the word vaccination just has to be mentioned and everything is instantly forgotten. Like those hypnotism shows where people go onstage and do silly things but the minute the hypnotist clicks his fingers everything is forgotten.

MayBee70 - hardly true. But constantly vilifying Boris and the Tories hardly stands up because we have no idea what sort of mess Labour would have made of it. Maybe much worse. As I said, people are so frightened of the mess Labour will make they keep voting Tory!

Alegrias1

He brought BREXIT on himself and all the rest of us. He doesn't get brownie points for managing that, sorry.

Other leaders? Ardern. Biden. Merkel.

He hasn’t managed Brexit? he hasn’t even understood it!

From twitter - I wholeheartedly agree

“Yesterday, Angela Merkel received a 6 minute applause from the German nation after 18 years of leadership. She gave no dodgy contracts to friends or family and lived in a small apartment. Not once was there a mention of #sleaze. Why can't we just have 1 honest, decent politician?”

^ As I said, people are so frightened of the mess Labour will make they keep voting Tory!^

And I say that that is a load of tribalist bollocks, Chestnut. There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever to support that statement.

MaizieD

^ As I said, people are so frightened of the mess Labour will make they keep voting Tory!^

And I say that that is a load of tribalist bollocks, Chestnut. There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever to support that statement.

Charming!!

How do you explain that the Conservatives including Mr.Johnson are consistently ahead in the polls (last time I looked)

You cannot constantly dismiss an seventy nine seat majority just because you do not like the Government of the day.

Personally I would be happy to see a credible centrist party, unfortunately that’s not likely to happen any time soon.

I said Brexit AND the pandemic.

Brexit was absolutely self inflicted and just more evidence of Johnson's incompetence. There would have been no problem with extending the Transition stage, possibly indefinitely, giving the government space to deal with the pandemic.

As it is, Brexit is a complete and utter mess and the government's handling of the pandemic has been shambolic. Three times now that government's incompetence has let the virus rip through the population when they had had plenty of time (and advice) to do something to stop it.

It's indefensible.