So many dreams for our youngsters dashed.

1996. A key objective for the National Curriculum was to raise this towards 100%. Significant progress was made after MFL in KS4 became compulsory in 1996

Languages have not been compulsory in England beyond the age of 14 since 2004. Ofsted has noted the number of entries for GCSEs in modern foreign languages (MFL) has “declined significantly” since that time

Well yes that’s fine but many want to be in Europe! It’s closer for a start. It’s the fact that choice has been removed.

I understand that, although clearly choice has not been removed, it’s simply a bit more complicated now. I was simply making the point that very many young people do not want to go to Europe as it is regarded as too similar to the UK. Young people tend to go to Australia, South America, and The Far East for their travels these days. If young people can travel to other continents and work there, it cannot be beyond their wit to travel to Europe either. It is surely more difficult and complicated to travel and work in Cambodia or Peru than to France. We should not put young people down. If they want to work in Europe then they will sort it out and work in Europe.

MaizieD

^Isn't this evidence of the divide though?^

I think it's evidence of a lack of understanding of how very closely integrated with the other EU member states we had become at a personal level. It's not just about gap year or holiday jobs; to assume that it is reveals a certain narrowness of thought, but about opportunities for life.

Opportunities to work seamlessly between two or more EU states, either travelling between them or settling in one, for a whole career. Opportunities to start small businesses to trade seamlessly with 27 other nations, opportunities to develop relationships with other EU nationals and be confident of their right to live in each other's country.

What was so wrong with all that that it had to be taken away?

What have we gained from it?

Listen to these Europeans, albeit from 2017, trading nations good, rules, regulations, awful people as Verhofstadt, Barnier, and that woman Von Leydun, parachuted in, belittled abused and denigrated this country. This a view from people in mainland Europe.Love European countries, but not the EU, becoming too Federalistic for my liking.
www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/25/nice-idea-but-europeans-on-what-went-wrong-eu

foxie48

MaizieD I don't have a lack of understanding of what we have lost by leaving the EU, I just refuse to spend the rest of my life moaning about it because I can't change it. I voted Remain but I lost. End of story!

If that's your choice it's fine. No one is going to stop you thinking that way. But equally, I hope you would not stop others having their opinion. Mine is that Remain lost because it was an undemocratic even an anti-democratic vote so, for me, it is not the end of the story.

PippaZ

foxie48

MaizieD I don't have a lack of understanding of what we have lost by leaving the EU, I just refuse to spend the rest of my life moaning about it because I can't change it. I voted Remain but I lost. End of story!

If that's your choice it's fine. No one is going to stop you thinking that way. But equally, I hope you would not stop others having their opinion. Mine is that Remain lost because it was an undemocratic even an anti-democratic vote so, for me, it is not the end of the story.

I am totally supportive of people having their own opinion but I do object to being told that my opinion is because I don't understand what we have lost, I just choose to deal with it differently.

I voted remain too, but I’m not going to spend the rest of my life in mourning. I’ve got better things to do than trying to convince everyone who voted leave that they are too stupid to understand what they have done. I accept that things have changed.

maddyone : ' If they want to work in Europe then they will sort it out and work in Europe.'

I am sorry, but it is just not as easy as that. I thought I had made that clear. Employers in tourism, leisure-sport, and other trades and professions, be they British or EU- are NOT employing British youngsters currently because the red tape is so massively complicated and expensive too.

So yes, a very few might make it, somehow- but for the vast majority, that is just not going to happen.

And they are now not able to go to Europe for 3 months to look for work- they have to have a contract before going, and the employer will have to make a case for employing them rather than local youngsters and go through all sorts of hoops.

Lincslass
Thank you for the link. All the reasons are there ( and there’s more) why I voted to leave.

If you are happy with the choice to drastically limit the choice for your children and grand-children- then I shall insist on my choice to call it selfish and unfair.

Fair enough, surely.

Ellianne

and Politics threads^
I love a bit of rough and tumble, but preferably not in the air! Talking of pilots!!
Too much turbulence.

?
And remember...
There are bold pilots and old pilots but no old bold pilots.✈️

It must also be remembered that there are many many countries in the world outside of EU ones.

Profound ...

btw I know a few, really!

there are other countries outside the E U ? Really ?
Well in that case maybe we should stop teaching European languages as it’s now so hard to have work experience there.

costs involved.
Young people could/can quite easily travel to Europe on train, ferry, bus, coach

maddyone

^Well yes that’s fine but many want to be in Europe! It’s closer for a start. It’s the fact that choice has been removed.^

I understand that, although clearly choice has not been removed, it’s simply a bit more complicated now. I was simply making the point that very many young people do not want to go to Europe as it is regarded as too similar to the UK. Young people tend to go to Australia, South America, and The Far East for their travels these days. If young people can travel to other continents and work there, it cannot be beyond their wit to travel to Europe either. It is surely more difficult and complicated to travel and work in Cambodia or Peru than to France. We should not put young people down. If they want to work in Europe then they will sort it out and work in Europe.

Most popular destinations for gap years 2019:

The Most Popular Countries to Take Gap Years In:
Country Average monthly travel costs
1 Thailand£1,533
2 Australia£3,178
3 Vietnam £910
4 Peru £969
5 New Zealand £2,768
6 USA £5,023
7 Cambodia £786
8 South Africa £1,826
9 Argentina £808
10 India £647

Young people are probably more adventurous than we were when we were young when grape picking or au pairing in France was the aim of the privileged few.

These are preferred destinations for many adventurous young Europeans too as they backpack around, working or volunteering as they go.

A few years later (in my forties shock) I went to live in a non-EU country and had to pass medicals, send in my qualifications for "approval" and had to apply for a visa. Having been through both systems, the first was definitely more conducive to me fulfilling my opportunities.

Is that because you were going for a specific job and, of course, you were older, Alegrias.

If it's the country I am thinking of, a one year working visa is obtained easily online for those under 30 and then it's up to the individual to seek work when they arrive. After that, if they wish to stay and work for another year, they have to complete a certain period of agricultural work which many young people of all nationalities do.
Or rather, did, pre-Covid.

It's different for someone who wants to take up a professional position.

I accepted a last minute job in Spain 4 years ago. The original new-hire didn't have an EU passport and the school spent ages trying to get them a visa with no success. I got the job and was able to start 10 days later, with my British/EU passport.

Wouldn't happen now. Any European jobs I've seen advertised that once I would have applied for (I'm not interested now, am staying with my family in UK) ALL state that applicants must hold an EU passport.

Going to Thailand on a gap year is NOT the same as getting a permanent job in Paris, studying in Copenhagen, setting up a business in Germany or retiring to Spain. It has become vastly more difficult to do the latter examples One of my family teaches in a university in Italy. He would find immense bureaucratic difficulties in obtaining that job now, since parity of educational qualifications from non EU countries is not immediately recognised. Those who say it can be done , we didn’t do it in my day, you can go to Australia etc , are missing the point, we have deliberately made life more complicated and expensive for thousands of our fellow citizens.

they have to complete a certain period of agricultural work

Where do you think I went, 15th century China? ?

And no, no specific job.

vegansrock

Going to Thailand on a gap year is NOT the same as getting a permanent job in Paris, studying in Copenhagen, setting up a business in Germany or retiring to Spain. It has become vastly more difficult to do the latter examples One of my family teaches in a university in Italy. He would find immense bureaucratic difficulties in obtaining that job now, since parity of educational qualifications from non EU countries is not immediately recognised. Those who say it can be done , we didn’t do it in my day, you can go to Australia etc , are missing the point, we have deliberately made life more complicated and expensive for thousands of our fellow citizens.

Exactly.
People are talking about gap years, that’s not what this is all about, this is about people wanting to spend time in a European country working, quite possibly for well over a year.

Interesting to hear what Gagajo said, which illustrates the point being made.

MerylStreep

A friend of my grandson has started his Pilot training.
I will pass on your words of wisdom kali2
I doubt his reply will be printable on GN.

In the case of pilots there are only 2 credible qualifications, for the EU it is EASA for the USA it is FAA, other national qualifications are quite restrictive. Many countries have policies to employ local pilots these days so work permits are not as easy as the past.

Lucca

vegansrock

Going to Thailand on a gap year is NOT the same as getting a permanent job in Paris, studying in Copenhagen, setting up a business in Germany or retiring to Spain. It has become vastly more difficult to do the latter examples One of my family teaches in a university in Italy. He would find immense bureaucratic difficulties in obtaining that job now, since parity of educational qualifications from non EU countries is not immediately recognised. Those who say it can be done , we didn’t do it in my day, you can go to Australia etc , are missing the point, we have deliberately made life more complicated and expensive for thousands of our fellow citizens.

Exactly.
People are talking about gap years, that’s not what this is all about, this is about people wanting to spend time in a European country working, quite possibly for well over a year.

Interesting to hear what Gagajo said, which illustrates the point being made.

Which was precisely the point I was trying to make. Thank you ladies ?

I doubt the summer jobs in Europe which used to be easy (and, conversely the UK jobs that young Europeans would have taken) are the same as a "planned" gap year in Thailand where, if Callistemon is correct, thousands of pounds are necessary.
A cheap ferry/flight/train was all that was required.

The vast majority of young people in the UK just want a job in this country - I don’t know the percentages but I’d be shocked if more than 10% want to work / study in Europe. So this really isn’t going to worry too many people.

And that, children, is how we ended up in this state. The lesson is children, don't worry about people who want to do something that doesn't fit in with the perceived norm. They just don't matter!