Paying for Social Care

Just to point out - I am the biggest advocate for universal healthcare you are likely to come across. If you need medical care, it should be free. No question.

If you have two places to live, and you'll never live in one of them again, sell one. Or don't, but don't expect me to pay your rent.

To be honest, £2816 a month doesn't sound excessive, if you factor in the rent component, utility bills, food and staff costs, but it seems many people are paying more than this.

To answer the previous question, I pay per month (approx):

£825 rent
£135 council tax
£120 food (without preparation)
£200 bills (water, gas, electricity, TV/phone)

So if I lived in a residential home, I'd be saving £1280 a month. That would leave me with £1616 a month to spend on carers and admin. The cost of employing somebody with on costs (NICs, sick/holiday pay, insurance etc) is probably double the amount paid to the workers themselves, so (say) £16 an hour, which would buy me about 100 hours of care (ie three hours a day).

That's before any profit which a private provider could reasonably be expected to make.

(I'm thinking aloud. It doesn't really help with the issue of who pays.)

Alegrias1

^Isn't a nursing home a medical setting?^

Then you should expect to have it paid for.

Why is this so hard?

You might expect to have it paid but I can assure you that won't happen unless you get CHC which is very difficult to get and seems harder in some areas than in others.

Alegrias1

Just to point out - I am the biggest advocate for universal healthcare you are likely to come across. If you need medical care, it should be free. No question.

If you have two places to live, and you'll never live in one of them again, sell one. Or don't, but don't expect me to pay your rent.

I feel the same.

theworriedwell

Alegrias1

Isn't a nursing home a medical setting?

Then you should expect to have it paid for.

Why is this so hard?

You might expect to have it paid but I can assure you that won't happen unless you get CHC which is very difficult to get and seems harder in some areas than in others.

And that's what needs addressing, which the current changes don't.

Alegrias1, unfortunately you have to get the authorities to agree that you need medical care...that is extremely difficult to do. The bar is extremely high and you have to tick so many boxes to even have a proper assessment. To be honest, most people in a care home (not a nursing home) are there because they can't cope at home safely. It is by ensuring you have that safety which stops you from needing the medical care. By stepping in to prevent falls, more problems exacerbated by diabetes and clearing up the poo smears and stopping my mother from eating it that we keep my mother out of hospital...I am told that we need regular hospitalisation before we will get funding for nursing care. So we have a conundrum...leave her to get on with it so she is hospitalised so she gets some funding or give up any sort of life to care for her for most of the day and night.
growstuff, I invite anyone who can find care at the prices Age UK quote. I recently paid £1200 a week for my mother in a Dementia Home which did not include Nursing Care. The Community Nurse had to visit to give her insulin twice a day. I was horrified by the amount and things did not go well so we have looked further afield to find something more akin to her needs. The Social Worker says that we need to be looking at nearer £2000 a week to pay for Nursing Care which she needs. He has triggered an assessment but doesn't think we'll succeed as the bar for it is so high. Everybody agrees that it is far too high, nobody seems to be able to do anything about it.

Doodledog, lots of people refer to ordinary residential care homes as nursing homes - I saw it all the time when I was a regular visitor to a forum for carers of people with dementia.

For obvious reasons, care homes that provide nursing as well as social care are more expensive.

worriedwell You seem to be saying that the high price is because a place has been chosen which offers higher standards than the "basic" package. I understand why that choice was made, but I don't agree that the difference should be subsidised by taxpayers.

Alegrias1

Just to point out - I am the biggest advocate for universal healthcare you are likely to come across. If you need medical care, it should be free. No question.

If you have two places to live, and you'll never live in one of them again, sell one. Or don't, but don't expect me to pay your rent.

Do you think there is a problem with accessing care for the most vulnerable? I'm not talking about someone who goes into a care home as they aren't managing, a bit like living in a hotel but the people like my relative who need all the care I've described? I think lots of people don't realise how much care is needed by some, you may have experience of it or not I don't know but I have worked in the sector and have a relative in care so my experience is quite comprehensive.

Apart from physical care there is also the comparison with care for someone with say schizophrenia/psychosis and someone with dementia. I would say (with experience) that if my relative had been 40 rather than 80 she would have been sectioned and received free care, I've seen people sectioned with symptoms very similar to her, delusions/hallucination etc. It is interesting to compare them as people with mental health conditions might be in care for the rest of their life, it isn't terminal but the care is there for them. Actually mental health care is also inadequate which is a whole different problem but if you are at the stage where you are admitted for long term care it is free.

icanhandthemback I'm not disputing your figures. I'm trying to find out the truth and I wonder why CareHome UK and Age UK are using such inaccurate figures.

Where did the sum of £2816 come from? My mother pays 1300 per week. On a four week month that comes to £5200. And there are 13 four week months in a year, and that totals £67600 per year.

I too have a friend with a disabled son who has spent years trying to get him into suitable residential care. I have no illusions that it is easy.

growstuff

worriedwell You seem to be saying that the high price is because a place has been chosen which offers higher standards than the "basic" package. I understand why that choice was made, but I don't agree that the difference should be subsidised by taxpayers.

I'm not saying that either, I was explaining why costs vary. It isn't the point with free care though, I could have chosen to go private when I needed a hysterectomy but NHS was available. I didn't choose a more expensive home for my relative rather than accepting a state funded place, even if I'd chosen a home that the local authority used I'd still have to use her funds to pay. In her case she wouldn't be a in a home with fees of £500 a week, with my knowledge of local costs the cheapest would likely be over £900 which is still alot of money for most families.

Although I often refer to the home where my mother lives as a ‘care home,’ it is in fact a nursing home. That’s why it employs qualified nurses along with its many carers.

maddyone

Although I often refer to the home where my mother lives as a ‘care home,’ it is in fact a nursing home. That’s why it employs qualified nurses along with its many carers.

I think lots of people say care home automatically, it is a sort of catch all isn't it like people say hoover for any vacuum but we know what they mean.

Yes I agree theworriedwell.

maddyone

Where did the sum of £2816 come from? My mother pays 1300 per week. On a four week month that comes to £5200. And there are 13 four week months in a year, and that totals £67600 per year.

It came from Care Home UK and Age UK. I have no idea how they calculated it.

Well Care Home UK are clearly wrong then.

Care Home UK claims that the average monthly cost of a care home (ie not just residential) is £3552. I don't know why they've got it wrong either, but that's what they claim.

Yes, indeed.

Stop sending money abroad,we need to look after ourselves.
The old addage of charity begins at home springs to mind.

My mum pays just over £1000 a week in her care home. Her local authority allow £650 a week for a care home if a resident has no assets. There are no care homes with beds available for self funding residents at just £650 a week. Self funders are subsiding local authorities. These fees have increased by 5% this year.

My mums care home is run as a not for profit company so there are no shareholders expecting a cut of the profits.. Their staff are paid the living wage as opposed to the lower minimum wage which means they have good staff retention and they don’t use agency staff as they have their own “ bank” staff. Fee increases are capped at 5% a year - and yes, they do go up by 5% each year.

Yet the costs are still more than Age UK or Care Home UK are quoting.

The discrepancy between what self funders pay and local authorities pay needs to be addressed.

But I have no problem with mums house being sold to pay for her care, I have never had expectations of any inheritance, my parents did not inherit anything from my grandparents, who should I?

timetogo2016

Stop sending money abroad,we need to look after ourselves.
The old addage of charity begins at home springs to mind.

The full quote from Thomas Fuller is "Charity begins at home but should not end there."

What you mean really, is, I think, "let's not give any of our money to those foreigners."

Ask Johnson and the multi-millionaire cabinet members where we might find more money to look after ourselves.

Teacheranne that is a good point, I forgot about the cheaper homes having no beds. In my local authority they go for the cheapest beds they can find. Having done the books for care homes I don't know how they can provide good quality care for under £600 a week but my LA think it is OK.

My relative is in a home that is run by a charity so no profits there either.

I think for lots of us it isn't about inheritance (I think my relative may well have left the bulk of her estate to an animal charity but she might have left it to relatives) it is the unfairness and it does affect younger people as well, lots of young people with learning difficulties for example are sometimes in inappropriate settings because it is cheaper.

growstuff

Care Home UK claims that the average monthly cost of a care home (ie not just residential) is £3552. I don't know why they've got it wrong either, but that's what they claim.

I suppose there are different ways to work it out, there are probably more of the less expensive care homes than the full on nursing home that is more like a mini hospital with associated costs. It might bring the average down.

Have they worked out the mean, median or mode (can you tell I've been helping GS with his maths GCSE?)

How often do they check fees. I suppose all that matters is what the home we are seeing is charging.