Biological men in woman only spaces

It's OK to not agree but we need solutions not rigid stances

Doodledog

*Why should women expect female-only spaces? It sounds very Talibanistic to me. Can we only be safe if we are in a special place? Next, we will not be allowed out of that space. We will not be allowed to mix or compete with men (something many have fought for). We will not be allowed to be educated with the opposite sex, something that was still frowned on by some when I was growing up.*

Are you serious? This is the second time you have accused me of thinking like the Taliban - the first was for having a different point of view from yours on pensions!

No, having a single sex space to change after swimming, or having a female doctor to examine women who have just been raped does not lead to single-sex education or women not being allowed out without male guardians. Similarly, not wanting to be left with lights out in a locked cell with a biological male does not equate to separatist thinking.

Nobody is saying that we can 'only be safe in a special place', just that there are times when women feel safer amongst other women, particularly when vulnerable or naked.

Either you are deliberately finding fault with what I am saying or you are losing the plot.

I didn't accuse you of thinking like the Taliban. I said the segregation of women was along their line of thinking. I don't think you are the only one who has ever mentioned "safe spaces" for women. That was what I was addressing, not single-sex spaces (whatever they are).

I have no memory of mentioning the Taliban previously.

VioletSky

There are some really good points being made about why the battle should be creating a society where safe spaces aren't needed.

Trans women in general are being made scapegoats for the crimes of others.

This would be like being afraid of our own sons and treating them like they could attack someone at any moment.

Quite. It is very like the attitude to Gays before the law was changed. They were perverted; they were peodophiles, etc., etc.

These are people. "Predatory" comes in any sex and under many guises. The vast majority of people are not predatory.

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VioletSky

There are some really good points being made about why the battle should be creating a society where safe spaces aren't needed.

Trans women in general are being made scapegoats for the crimes of others.

This would be like being afraid of our own sons and treating them like they could attack someone at any moment.

It really wouldn't.

Transwomen aren't being made scapegoats. Women are simply asking for business as usual - a chance to be assured that there are no men around when thy are vulnerable - or at the very least to know who they are.

If our sons were trans we would still know that they were our sons - and unless they are habitually violent, there would be no reason to expect them to attack anyone at any moment.

Rosie51 I'm sorry but everyone thinks their husbands, brothers and sons are safe, including those related to predators.

It would still be wrong to treat them all that way and it is wrong to treat trans women like they could all be possible predators.

That's why the solution is to find a safe way to be inclusive. Not a transphobic way where trans women have nowhere to go or to ahem go.

I have never wanted to undress in public and so if I go to the swimming pool I shower wearing my costume. If there are no cubicles to change in I change in the loo. Transwomen could do the same to avoid revealing anything most women don't have.

But "business as usual" in the past didn't allow women to be equal in our society. At one time, it was considered reasonable that they were the property of men.

"Business as usual" turned gay men into criminals while gay women were thought to be too outrageous to exist.

Business as usual was serfdom and even slavery.

I want none of those. Nor do I want trans people to be "othered". Progress is never easy and it's sometimes frightening. Just imagine a Gransnet discussion at the time of the suffragettes. The same sort of people would be for and against it. But in spite of the difficulties, we now see it as progress and praise what them for fighting for change.

My last post replied to Doodledog Mon 20-Sep-21 15:36:49

VioletSky

Rosie51 I'm sorry but everyone thinks their husbands, brothers and sons are safe, including those related to predators.

It would still be wrong to treat them all that way and it is wrong to treat trans women like they could all be possible predators.

That's why the solution is to find a safe way to be inclusive. Not a transphobic way where trans women have nowhere to go or to ahem go.

???? I'm sorry but everyone thinks their husbands, brothers and sons are safe, including those related to predators. Wasn't that essentially the point I made? You said This would be like being afraid of our own sons and treating them like they could attack someone at any moment. and I explained why it really isn't. And for the billionth time, nobody is saying transwomen are all predators, merely that the proposed self ID will make it easier for men to self ID as transwomen in order to have easy access to victims. There are certain situations male bodied people, no matter how they identify, should be excluded from. For example I have had an intimate physical examination by a male medic, the difference was I knew it was a male and gave informed consent. If however I had been raped I can imagine I would want a female medic. Someone who identified as a woman, despite having an intact male body, would not be suitable, and I would not be giving informed consent.

Message deleted by Gransnet. We've removed this as it quotes a previously deleted post.

Good comments Rosie

It’s like knitting fog, isn’t it?

There is no link between wanting the ‘business as usual’ aspects of female changing rooms, hospital wards and prison cells and serfdom or criminalisation of gay men. Creating those links does nothing to help a discussion about safe spaces, as they are entirely false equivalences.

Violet, you are right that many people don’t realise that their loved ones are predators, but again, that’s irrelevant. What people are asking for is not to have to undress in front of men unless we want to. If we don’t know they are there, we can’t give informed consent.

Asking for single sex spaces won’t impact on our sons unless they want to access them, which the vast majority of them won’t, surely?

Maybe I am misunderstanding the problem.

Just lobby for individual changing/toileting and ensure that prisons/women's shelters either have seperate secure rooms or informed consent is given if they are shared?

Or ensure the law which allows for the exclusion of men in certain spaces is followed. Women aren't consenting violet that's the point.

Is it not the law that is allowing people to change gender Galaxy and isn't it also law that we should not descriminate?

I am not sure what gender has to do with it violet. Single sex spaces are segregated by sex and are protected within the equality act. The right to exclude men from some spaces is enshrined in law. And vice versa where necessary.

Is the law differentiating between gender and sex in all cases?

Or is it all a bit fuzzy because trans women also need to be kept safe, to try on new clothes and somewhere they can go for a wee as basic human rights

No in specific cases such as refuges, prisons etc it is sex which is the factor not gender. It is all detailed in the equality act.
Why would transwomen be any safer in womens facilities, after all as you and other posters are asserting (against all statistical evidence) any sex is dangerous, imagine suggesting that our brothers, husbands might hurt transwomen.

Which laws did you mean?

Laws are rarely fuzzy. They are written so that it is clear when they have been broken.

No I did not suggest that at all.

Also I stated that two women in my life are guilty of abuse and got away with it.

I don't feel comfortble getting changed in front of anyone as a result but there are easy ways around that.

The thing is that I think these discussions are important but when they become arguments where we are not hearing each other it is pointless.

Everyone should be able to live their authentic lives, feel safe and not face descrimunation. That includes everyone commenting here.

I've never said any differently

varian

I have never wanted to undress in public and so if I go to the swimming pool I shower wearing my costume. If there are no cubicles to change in I change in the loo. Transwomen could do the same to avoid revealing anything most women don't have.

Transwomen could indeed. Those who do avoid revealing their body parts by doing what you suggest probably go unnoticed and have done for a while.
Why do those who flaunt their male attributes and appendages in female only spaces do that if they want to be seen as female?
And in response to the endless cry from some posters of, “it’s only a small number”, the fact is that if one transwoman behaves in a certain way in a female only place knowing it is upsetting for females then not only is that one too many, but also that one transwoman is doing more harm to the trans cause than anyone else.

I think it depends on how you view single sex spaces violet. So I view them as a layer of safeguarding and also a means of providing privacy and dignity. From what you are saying I think you see single sex spaces as discrimination. My husband, brothers, sons dont feel discriminated against because they cant go in female spaces. They understand womens boundaries. They dont think they are being called predators, in the same way I dont think I am being called a predator when I am asked to do approximately 10 DBS checks per year to do my job. I understand that even though I am not a predator there have to be safeguards in place because dangerous people tend not to announce the fact that they are dangerous.

Galaxy

No in specific cases such as refuges, prisons etc it is sex which is the factor not gender. It is all detailed in the equality act.
Why would transwomen be any safer in womens facilities, after all as you and other posters are asserting (against all statistical evidence) any sex is dangerous, imagine suggesting that our brothers, husbands might hurt transwomen.

Could you quote the words you are attributing to other posters. I think you are misleading other by posting less than truthful twist to what has been said. I am happy to be shown I am wrong but this is no way to conduct a discussion if that is what you are doing.

It might be good if we could actually pin down what is meant by self ID. Most transpeople just want a simplified legal process which doesn't involve a medical input, is reasonably priced and easy to use. For some reason self ID has been written about as if it was something people could do on a whim. Now whilst there may be a few people who would like that it isn't the view most transpeople hold.