Biological men in woman only spaces

I don't know about you but the only thing I ever do in public, in a public loo, is wash my hands. In many of the new ones even that isn't necessary. What is it that some of you have needed to do, in a public loo, since 2010, that you can't? Trans people have been allowed to use gender-separated spaces that align with their identity since then. They have been doing just that across the UK without being noticed as far as I can gather.

If the Sunday Times hadn't written an article which stirred up the whole "toilet wars" idea they would have gone on quietly about their lives. The ST wrote the article in 2018 - eight years after the law was past but had to withdraw it and print an apology because it was a lie.

They succeeded in stirring up the culture wars though didn't they and the lies and obfuscations that go with that.

Galaxy

No....

We can have both, that's the point.

Trans women have nowhere to use certain facilities so obviously that is descrimination.

The sports issue aside (very problematic and not really qualified to have an opinion there)

The other issues are very resolvable and everyone can be accommodated.

I don't know if, we could come together and find solutions that everyone was comfortable with, without excluding trans women from either facilities or discussion, it would help...

But history has taught me that while we are all busy arguing someone else makes those decisions for all of us which leaves some of us unhappy

Galaxy

Or ensure the law which allows for the exclusion of men in certain spaces is followed. Women aren't consenting violet that's the point.

Which law is that Galaxy and could you quote what it says about the "exclusion on men in certain spaces", please.

Because people are saying that transwomen need to be in womens spaces to be safe. That implies that Male spaces are dangerous. But when we point that out as one of the reasons for sex segregation we are then told we are calling men predators. It cant be both Pippa.
It's also to do with saying any sex can be a predator, and yes of course they can, but men and women commit crimes in very different ways. We cant pretend that's not a reality.

Mollygo

varian

I have never wanted to undress in public and so if I go to the swimming pool I shower wearing my costume. If there are no cubicles to change in I change in the loo. Transwomen could do the same to avoid revealing anything most women don't have.

Transwomen could indeed. Those who do avoid revealing their body parts by doing what you suggest probably go unnoticed and have done for a while.
Why do those who flaunt their male attributes and appendages in female only spaces do that if they want to be seen as female?
And in response to the endless cry from some posters of, “it’s only a small number”, the fact is that if one transwoman behaves in a certain way in a female only place knowing it is upsetting for females then not only is that one too many, but also that one transwoman is doing more harm to the trans cause than anyone else.

So when, where and which person did this?

The exclusions are included in the Equality Act Pippa.

Do what?

lemongrove

The leader of the Lib Dems was on radio 4 this morning and thinks that there should be no safe spaces just for women (biological females) so there you have it, don’t vote for them.

Did anyone hear the Scottish Lib Dem politician on woman’s hour ?? Dreadful. I Was driving and yelling at the radio. She didn’t answer a question she didn’t appear to know some basic facts, waffle waffle

Because there are spaces that a
sometimes need to be segregated. So you would be in trouble if you set up a pub only for men for example, but you wouldnt be in trouble if you established a support group for men with mental health issues, the equality act recognises that there are certain situations where you are allowed to do this.

Galaxy

Because people are saying that transwomen need to be in womens spaces to be safe. That implies that Male spaces are dangerous. But when we point that out as one of the reasons for sex segregation we are then told we are calling men predators. It cant be both Pippa.
It's also to do with saying any sex can be a predator, and yes of course they can, but men and women commit crimes in very different ways. We cant pretend that's not a reality.

What is that in reply to, please? I'm afraid I can't make sense of it.

Yes I did Lucca I loved it when EB said "you don't get to change (or was it reframe?) the question. She didn't have one coherent word to say. And when she said the courts will decide for children under 16, then was told the Supreme Court appeal had been successful so the courts would not be involved....."oh yes" as if she'd never said it in the first place...... I wasn't driving, thank goodness, caught it on catchup.

I did. I didn't find it waffling. I found the interviewer useless. If you don't let people answer in their own way you learn nothing. There are many people (and TV companies) who could (and did) learn from Jimmy Young.

I will commend her for saying that it was totally wrong and unacceptable (I'm giving the gist, not verbatim) that Rosie Duffield feels she can't attend the Labour conference.

PippaZ

I did. I didn't find it waffling. I found the interviewer useless. If you don't let people answer in their own way you learn nothing. There are many people (and TV companies) who could (and did) learn from Jimmy Young.

What answer the question they wished had been asked instead of the one that was? I've no doubt you'd be according the same consideration to ..... well let's start with Boris Johnson, he's good at answering "in his own way"

Sorry but I thought she terrible . She went on about being a mum and not attempting to give a direct answer . The interviewer understandably became irritated with her. I speak as someone who would quite possibly vote Lib Dem by the way

Whatever. I would still like to know who has actually had a bad experience since 2010 when trans people, identifying as female, could use the public toilets of their choice.

In that is 11 years apparently no one has.

There have been a number of sexual assaults in prison by a transwomen, last I heard the legal process was still ongoing on that case, a child was assaulted in a female toilet by a transwoman, I think it was 2016, then there are the current issues with relation to a spa, in which women and children complained that a transwoman was exposing themselves, obviously they were told they were bigots etc, unfortunately that person was a convicted sex offender so lots of people had to backtrack on that one. Obviously I havent covered the issues of sport and refuges.

Oh and I am not sure how you think there is an atmosphere of women being able to talk about their experiences as whenever women try to talk about this they receive threats of sexual violence, death threats etc, or as JKR experienced porn posted on a story thread which she created for children. But yes absolutely nothing has happened.

Galaxy

There have been a number of sexual assaults in prison by a transwomen, last I heard the legal process was still ongoing on that case, a child was assaulted in a female toilet by a transwoman, I think it was 2016, then there are the current issues with relation to a spa, in which women and children complained that a transwoman was exposing themselves, obviously they were told they were bigots etc, unfortunately that person was a convicted sex offender so lots of people had to backtrack on that one. Obviously I havent covered the issues of sport and refuges.

The single case you highlight was completed in July and the judge found agains the claimant.

The only one about a spa was in America. In Los Angeles, in fact. Apparently an arrest has been made earlier this month so it will probably be some time before we get the judgement.

So that is one case in the whole of America and one that was not carried in the UK. I am personally not suprised it is taking a while for this to settle down, nor am I supprised that there might be the odd bad apple. There are plenty of them in society in general.

I still haven't heard any GNetters offended in a public toilet by a trans women in the last 11 years.

You amaze me PZ.
You’d dismiss the threatening ones in mental health hospitals where terrified women were called bigots because fully formed maleS, selfID as women were allowed on a female ward and the staff could not remove the male?
One I know of personally.
Do stop this ‘it’s only one’ or ‘only a few’ or bad ones exist ‘in society in general’. Unless you think that makes it right.
One is too many-or would that be your attitude if a family member of yours was raped or murdered. Would you still be talking about the culprit as ‘one bad apple’?

Sorry which case are you talking about, I am talking about Karen White in terms of prison.

I think the situations that have happened are awful. Safeguarding has failed and people who should have been kept safe weren't.

I still believe that we have to find solutions and compromise.

How many times has a very few bad acts turned us against an entire demographic? How much hate and fear has spread and ruined the lives of many due to the actions of few? There are plenty of examples if you think about it.

We can't let bad experiences or fear turn us against people who don't deserve it.

I would suggest everyone here go watch some trans stories. There are so many trans people out there. Watch them become the gender they were meant to be, watch them overcome their struggles. That's what convinced me that I need to make space for them.

I know that there will be arguments that say, people have transitioned and discovered it was the wrong choice later but what about the hundreds of thousands that it was the right choice for?

I just think that most trans are beautiful people who just want to be accepted. That's what matters to me.

Yes I absolutely agree about compromise, so the provision of mixed sex and single sex changing rooms etc. And refuges prisons sport to remain single sex. I cant speak for anyone else violet but the assumption that we dont know transwomen is just that an assumption. I spent most of my twenties getting drunk with transwomen (long story) and lots of transwomen agree with the position that you cant change sex.

Galaxy

Yes I absolutely agree about compromise, so the provision of mixed sex and single sex changing rooms etc. And refuges prisons sport to remain single sex. I cant speak for anyone else violet but the assumption that we dont know transwomen is just that an assumption. I spent most of my twenties getting drunk with transwomen (long story) and lots of transwomen agree with the position that you cant change sex.

That isn't a compromise Galaxy.

The law is there and has been for 11 years. If there is a problem with changing rooms, for instance, then the businesses will have to work out what to do.

Equally refuges, prisons and sport - probably the most difficult - will have to review their safeguarding practices or bring in rules for all not just a few.

Changes that move us forward often make life better for all. I wouldn't be suprised if this happens in this case.