Now is the winter of Britain’s discontent

GG13 Since you have been running a company for a long time, I think I can trust what you are saying rather than anyone who has just been doing a bit of googling.
Where did all these haulier experts come from on here all of a sudden?
We all know the HGV driver shortage is a problem for many countries including the US ( they haven’t had Brexit!)
Anyone who voted to leave the EU bloc wanted better conditions for anyone living and working in the UK with immigration ( from EU and non EU countries) to suit us where needed.

Copied from elsewhere- but it does make you think, no?

''I wonder how many brexiters voted leave, hoping that it'd cause EU migrants to be paid 20% more than the indigenous workforce?
Still, they need us more than we need them!'' - apparently.

GrannyGravy13

GrannyGravy13

Dinahmo they would have to be declared in his accounts and shown some where, or how does he account for their wages?

This is a genuine question as we have never had cause to employ casual staff.

Wages for casual staff are usually shown separately in the profit and loss accounts
Mostly the casual staff I have encountered come from agencies so are paid on invoice ie not on the employers payroll

Sorry if I am repeating something already said but I don't have time to read all 10 pages. Things are bad in the USA too, my friend says prices are soaring, there are food shortages and the price of gas (petrol) has shot up too. There are also numerous job vacancies that just can’t be filled despite generous sign on bonuses.

I have no confidence in Boris Johnson though, his performance on Andrew Marr this morning was embarrassing and shambolic even by his standards. I just hope the Labour party can get its act together very soon.

GrannyGravy13

Dinahmo they would have to be declared in his accounts and shown some where, or how does he account for their wages?

This is a genuine question as we have never had cause to employ casual staff.

Dinahmo they would have to be declared in his accounts and shown some where, or how does he account for their wages?

Then we are agreed.

The story about EU drivers being the reason for low wages in the haulage industry is completely made up and they are being used as scapegoats for a low wage industry.

We should say that more often. One more Brexit lie disproved.

GrannyGravy13

Whitewavemark2 I assume you are referring to company accounts.

Paul Kelly the South East’s Turkey producer tried that on the news last week. He was claiming that before Brexit he employed 42 permanent staff, fortunately they had checked his previous accounts employees numbered 7…

Accounts submitted are only as good as the accountant who prepared them and his creative abilities

Better wages = better lives no ifs or buts…

But most of his workers came over from Europe just for the turkey "harvest" and then returned home. They wouldn't be included in the number of employees in the notes section of his accounts.

Alegrias1

Well, maybe. But I've spoken to a lot

And the second paragraph remains true.

Yes I have said the same repeatedly on this thread this morning.

Watch him smirk, and totally NOT answer the question. No wonder Andrew Marr ended up stopping him deflecting and going on stupid tangent - as per usual.

fb.watch/8pmdz3uIwj/

what an absolute idiot- and most os us can see right through him.

Actually, it is a very difficult situation now for hiw supporters. I think most of them know now that he is not up to the job, that he is a liar and totally clueless and irresponsible- but they just can't accept that they were fooled and taken for a ride. So they will become even more supportive for a while - in a desperate attempt not to be proven wrong. It must be very hard, I sympathise.

Well, maybe. But I've spoken to a lot

And the second paragraph remains true.

Alegrias1

I worked for 14 years in an industry that supported the haulage industry. I've spoken to more drivers and fleet managers than you've had hot dinners.

Low wages and an aging workforce were a problem for the whole period. The fact that some of the workers were from the EU was never thought of as the cause until the Tories thought it up as one of the excuses for Brexit.

Sorry Alegrias1 you are wrong regarding my consumption of hot dinners and hauliers.

And that is the very point growstuff. Johnson and the Government knew, full well, that this would be a massive problem- and not only did they do NOTHING to prepare, they ACTUALLY send a huge proportion of the drivers and fork-lift truck drivers (and nurses, and carers, and .... and ....) KNOWING full well that this would make matters so so mcuh worse.

Even if you believe in Free Market, in a high/er wage economy (and most of us would agree)- you can't just let it happen without planning, in a pandemic- AND send vast numbers of the good, experienced staff you have, packing with a flea in their ear.

The fact that there is a shortage in EU too makes this so much more difficult- as drivers, having been so badly treated, will take jobs where conditions, red tape, delays, aggro of every kind - and salaries, are better. And now, at this stage, even high salaries will not attract them back on short term.

There is Free Market- and the is total shambles!

I worked for 14 years in an industry that supported the haulage industry. I've spoken to more drivers and fleet managers than you've had hot dinners.

Low wages and an aging workforce were a problem for the whole period. The fact that some of the workers were from the EU was never thought of as the cause until the Tories thought it up as one of the excuses for Brexit.

Alegrias1

^The hauliers have been paying immigrant drivers as little as possible for the most hours for a good few years, hence the massive drain of U.K. drivers which is wrong on all levels.^

So those 3% (IIRC) of EU drivers that your graph said have gone home have influenced the salaries of the other 97%?

I don't think so.

And for that we have gone through the whole Brexit debacle.

Have you seen any of the interviews with HGV drivers?

They are all singing from the same hymn sheet, low wages, long and inconvenient hours combined with few if any truck stops

Any decent employer/employers organisation would have begun to address these issues as far back as 2015/16 when it was first flagged up.

A Government cannot force anyone into a specific job, whether they be a U.K. or EU National.

Apparently, trade organisations had a meeting with the government three months ago about the situation with drivers, but the government decided no action was needed.

The hauliers have been paying immigrant drivers as little as possible for the most hours for a good few years, hence the massive drain of U.K. drivers which is wrong on all levels.

So those 3% (IIRC) of EU drivers that your graph said have gone home have influenced the salaries of the other 97%?

I don't think so.

And for that we have gone through the whole Brexit debacle.

Alegrias1

So, we're repeatedly being told on here that the lorry driver shortage isn't due to Brexit. In fact GG13 showed us a graph the other day that showed what a relatively small proportion of drivers came from the EU, and how a relatively small proportion of those had gone home.

Yet, we are also told that the reason for low wages in the haulage industry is that the haulage companies had been employing EU nationals at low, low wages, and that was edging out the UK drivers.

Can't both be true.

I think it’s a combination of U.K. driver dissatisfaction with pay and conditions, drivers retiring along with the percentage of EU drivers no longer here.

I guess it’s a perfect storm whilst it is more severe in the U.K. it is worldwide.

Whitewavemark2

Apparently one of the biggest shortages is in warehouses with forklift drivers.

Who knew!

Maybe they should install Amazon-style robots.

GrannyGravy13

Whitewavemark2 I assume you are referring to company accounts.

Paul Kelly the South East’s Turkey producer tried that on the news last week. He was claiming that before Brexit he employed 42 permanent staff, fortunately they had checked his previous accounts employees numbered 7…

Accounts submitted are only as good as the accountant who prepared them and his creative abilities

Better wages = better lives no ifs or buts…

I'm honestly not disputing that, but it's not quite that simple (as I'm sure you know).

If people can't be persuaded to take up driving HGVs in significant numbers, all that happens is that those already driving get paid more. Competition between hauliers for scarce labour will result in those operating on lower profit margins and perhaps going bust.

Whitewavemark2

GrannyGravy13

As for a shortage of Fork Lift Truck Drivers there is a simple explanation, no tests were carried out during the height of Covid and there is a substantial backlog (we are awaiting a date for one at the moment)

That’s not what a mega warehouse owner was saying this morning.

Most of his shortage is due to people returning to Europe.

Ah! You saw that too? I can't the article with evidence now - I stupidly didn't save it. From what I remember there might be a backlog, but the normal number of tests were being carried out.

I'll have a look for the link.

GrannyGravy13

As for a shortage of Fork Lift Truck Drivers there is a simple explanation, no tests were carried out during the height of Covid and there is a substantial backlog (we are awaiting a date for one at the moment)

That’s not what a mega warehouse owner was saying this morning.

Most of his shortage is due to people returning to Europe.

You do realise that it illegal to knowingly submit incorrect accounts?

There is creativity and fraud.

Grant Thornton have recently learned that to their cost haven’t they?

As for a shortage of Fork Lift Truck Drivers there is a simple explanation, no tests were carried out during the height of Covid and there is a substantial backlog (we are awaiting a date for one at the moment)

Whitewavemark2 I assume you are referring to company accounts.

Paul Kelly the South East’s Turkey producer tried that on the news last week. He was claiming that before Brexit he employed 42 permanent staff, fortunately they had checked his previous accounts employees numbered 7…

Accounts submitted are only as good as the accountant who prepared them and his creative abilities

Better wages = better lives no ifs or buts…