Are we about to trigger Article 16?

Alegrias1

This morning the Express reported that Britain was considering "withdrawing funding" from the Horizon, Copernicus and Euratom programs if Article 16 is triggered. Suggesting of course, that the EU will be bereft as a result of the withdrawal of our precious funding.

Except it's not true.

If we trigger article 16 we're going to lose access to these invaluable programs, but the scientifically illiterate government say we can have our own versions. Except we can't. Science programs of this size cannot be funded by individual countries and good though our scientists are, everybody's else are good too. Science thrives by the pooling and sharing of knowledge, and this will cut us off from the rest of the world, possibly irrevocably.

Global Britain they say. Lying incompetents.

Knew I had seen this somewhere, think you mean the EU is shutting us out, and others. So is it any wonder the express got hold of the wrong end of the stick. This is down to Brussels,
sciencebusiness.net/framework-programmes/news/israel-switzerland-and-uk-face-exclusion-major-eu-quantum-and-space

The EU do what suits them best and what they can get away with.....the UK will do the same.A compromise will therefore be reached.

Better faith??? From the UK that took years to negotiata the 'perfect' Deal and began to renege on it from day one?

The EU do not need the UK- 27 of them can supply and sell to each other, with the full support of the USA. They will very likely walk, 99% ... Russian roulette.

Lincslass

Alegrias1

This morning the Express reported that Britain was considering "withdrawing funding" from the Horizon, Copernicus and Euratom programs if Article 16 is triggered. Suggesting of course, that the EU will be bereft as a result of the withdrawal of our precious funding.

Except it's not true.

If we trigger article 16 we're going to lose access to these invaluable programs, but the scientifically illiterate government say we can have our own versions. Except we can't. Science programs of this size cannot be funded by individual countries and good though our scientists are, everybody's else are good too. Science thrives by the pooling and sharing of knowledge, and this will cut us off from the rest of the world, possibly irrevocably.

Global Britain they say. Lying incompetents.

Knew I had seen this somewhere, think you mean the EU is shutting us out, and others. So is it any wonder the express got hold of the wrong end of the stick. This is down to Brussels,
sciencebusiness.net/framework-programmes/news/israel-switzerland-and-uk-face-exclusion-major-eu-quantum-and-space

I know that facts are downgraded in light of some random person's opinions, but I can tell you without fear or favour that this whole debacle is due to us rattling our sabres and pretending to be able to go it alone.

LincsLass
That you for posting the truth on this subject.

I agree Meryl
The EU has dragged it’s feet on this subject to keep us out.
We are not meant to ‘do well’ outside the bloc, by their thinking.

MerylStreep

LincsLass
That you for posting the truth on this subject.

Are you accusing me of lying MerylStreep?

Before we left the EU, we were part of the scientific and technological consensus. We were integral to setting the rules. We took part in all the decision making and had we still been members we might have influenced the decision. But even if the decision had remained the same, we wouldn't have been a third country and there would have been no question of us being able to participate in the programs.

We wanted to leave the club. We can't complain that we don't get the benefits any more.

Alegrias1

MerylStreep

LincsLass
That you for posting the truth on this subject.

Are you accusing me of lying MerylStreep?

Before we left the EU, we were part of the scientific and technological consensus. We were integral to setting the rules. We took part in all the decision making and had we still been members we might have influenced the decision. But even if the decision had remained the same, we wouldn't have been a third country and there would have been no question of us being able to participate in the programs.

We wanted to leave the club. We can't complain that we don't get the benefits any more.

We are not the only ones being shut out though, are we. Why should a Scientific Journalist lie, and I the think EU started rattling sabres, certainly one President is very good at it.

We are not the only ones being shut out though, are we

Because it's their club and they can set their own rules.

Crikey, this is hard....

I get it Alegrias. The vast proportion of scientists like to cross- fertilise ideas. But I think even more would prefer the U.K. to dole out funds directly to them rather than have the EU top slice and then allocate funds to their competitors.

Galileo is not the first instance of the EU punishment mentality. If Boris expects his "friends and allies" to be nice he must be mad. To them Brexit is an existential threat and we must be destroyed lest others copy us.

Urmstongran you have no conception of how this works. None at all.

Probably not. But then, Article 16 is about so much more anyway.

[sigh]

Urmstongran You don't understand how this works, Alegrias1 is quite right. British scientists wouldn't prefer to have money doled out by the British government, they would prefer to continue getting large EU grants to continue with their collaboration (not just cross fertilisation) with scientists around the world. DD used to apply for millions of Euros worth of grants for her work. This money has all but dried out and coupled with the loss of many of the EU students who would have come here to study research in this country is being seriously damaged. This is not "EU punishment" it is entirely self inflicted. The day after the referendum DD went into a meeting with her international colleagues. They all stared at her and said "What the fuck have you done?" Well now we know what we've done.

Alegrias1 Nobody could actually believe all this guff about... Frost having a cunning plan?

I think that's a bit harsh, after all his boss has always been competely honest and above board about plans. You'll remember when he said “So I am announcing now - on the steps of Downing Street - that we will fix the crisis in social care once and for all with a clear plan we have prepared.”

I rest my case I'll get my coat

Deedaa

Urmstongran You don't understand how this works, Alegrias1 is quite right. British scientists wouldn't prefer to have money doled out by the British government, they would prefer to continue getting large EU grants to continue with their collaboration (not just cross fertilisation) with scientists around the world. DD used to apply for millions of Euros worth of grants for her work. This money has all but dried out and coupled with the loss of many of the EU students who would have come here to study research in this country is being seriously damaged. This is not "EU punishment" it is entirely self inflicted. The day after the referendum DD went into a meeting with her international colleagues. They all stared at her and said "What the fuck have you done?" Well now we know what we've done.

Spot on Deedaa.

So that’s already happened? When we left.
Maybe Article 16 will improve matters. If it happens.
More negotiation. Different trade offs.

Good try.

Why are the Swiss and Israeli scientists shocked.
This from the article.
Everyone is shocked, we’ve never seen anything like this. This is no good for us, no good for the field, and not good for the eu
That was from Klass Ensslin professor of Solid State Physics at ETH Zurich.
Much the same comments from Israel.

Urmstongran

I get it Alegrias. The vast proportion of scientists like to cross- fertilise ideas. But I think even more would prefer the U.K. to dole out funds directly to them rather than have the EU top slice and then allocate funds to their competitors.

Galileo is not the first instance of the EU punishment mentality. If Boris expects his "friends and allies" to be nice he must be mad. To them Brexit is an existential threat and we must be destroyed lest others copy us.

Do you live in a parallel universe? You really haven't a clue. Your last few posts are fiction. Did you write them for a laugh?

Your last few posts are fiction. Did you write them for a laugh

Are you just beginning to realise this, growstuff?

MerylStreep

Why are the Swiss and Israeli scientists shocked.
This from the article.
Everyone is shocked, we’ve never seen anything like this. This is no good for us, no good for the field, and not good for the eu
That was from Klass Ensslin professor of Solid State Physics at ETH Zurich.
Much the same comments from Israel.

This happened to Switzerland before in the last EU Framework Programme for Research when they didn't allow free movement of Croatians after they joined.

So-called ‘guillotine’ clauses like this are common and the UK was responsible for agreeing to this possible sanction in Horizon Europe, and for actively supporting it in the previous programme. The government knew all about it, if they had taken the trouble to remember what they had dome themselves. The provision was there in the agreement.

As someone said to me, Frost is incapable of joining the dots, and there only are two dots.

They won’t trigger article 13 it would cause chaos, the EU know that.
Why the U.K. thinks it an leave the club and then take advantage of the parts they like is beyond me. Not only that, we could have adopted EU standards in several industries but decided to invent our own, which nobody recognizes.
National vandalism!.

I asked somewhere else and here are some of the answers:

The problem is that Englandshire thinks that as Article 16 relates to NI it won’t effect them. Sadly it’s that mentality that keeps them supporting Johnson’s lunatic ideas!
If it happens, I can see a burst of support for Johnson followed by the realisation that he’s pressed the so called nuclear option button, turning the whole of the U.K. into an untrustworthy Union that no one can trust on deals, now signed or any future ones. Basically a pariah state.
I hope people wise up before the next GE!


It's simple. The consequence of the UK triggering article 16 will be a trade war with the EU. this will be a short term disaster for the UK but might hurt enough that the less hard core brexiteers finally realise the UKs place in the world. The more hard core ones are a lost cause.

Johnson is using this as a distraction away from the Paterson debacle and the investigations into some of the Covid contracts, and personal investigations on holidays in Mustique, the refurbishment of the flat, holiday in Marbella in exchange for a peerage, and peerages given for big Tory donors, etc.

As for being 'down to Brussels' - I am afraid this is nonsense. It is Frost and Johnson that negotiated this Deal, called it oven ready and perfect, and are now refusing to implement. Brussels is 100% correct to insist it is implemented as agreed.

At the end of the day- the 27 + USA will stick together and they have everything they need to supply each other without any tarifs, checks or borders. With a bit of readjustment, they can just about forget about the UK altogether.