Pensioner poverty

We all knew we would get old. Most people could probably have saved more - I know I could have. I wasted money when I was younger with no thought for the future. I paid nothing into a private pension because nobody advised me to. I realise I could have done much more to help myself.

Whitewavemark2

grow I’m not sure what you mean. I have identified the % of pensioners in poverty according to the Rowntree Trust.

I am not concerned with better off pensioners, but only those who will be hit by the cut in pension and rising cost of living.

So assuming that the Rowntree figures are correct I’m not quite sure what you are saying.

I'm agreeing with you.

Even now, pensioners as a group are better off on average than they were 15 or 20 years ago - or at any time in the past. The increase has stalled and is going backwards, but they are still better off than in the past and relative to other groups in society. Pensioners, even now, have a higher safety net than others.

I do not agree that pensioner poverty should be considered as a separate issue from poverty generally. It's pitting one group against another.

PS. Please note the word "average".

I appreciate that those pensioners on Pension credit already receive fuel support Growstuff whereas younger folks on other benefits don’t, but older people need more heating than younger ones (generally).

If the Tories had stuck to the triple lock as promised, I wouldn’t quibble about Drakeford’s divisive measure but it’s adding insult to injury IMO!

By the way I’m not arguing this for my benefit, it’s for those who need it, for whatever reason.

This is slightly out-of-date, but the figures haven't changed much. It's also from JRF and shows that pensioner poverty has fallen relative to all other groups.

www.jrf.org.uk/data/poverty-rate-person-type-over-time-after-housing-costs-ahc

Pantglas2

I appreciate that those pensioners on Pension credit already receive fuel support Growstuff whereas younger folks on other benefits don’t, but older people need more heating than younger ones (generally).

If the Tories had stuck to the triple lock as promised, I wouldn’t quibble about Drakeford’s divisive measure but it’s adding insult to injury IMO!

By the way I’m not arguing this for my benefit, it’s for those who need it, for whatever reason.

Sorry, I don't agree. People of working age are considerably worse off financially than pensioners, who already receive WFA and, in some cases, Warm Home Discount.

What happens on a person's 66th birthday that they suddenly need more heat?

I support what Drakeford has done.

Interesting chart Growstuff.

I wonder whether the effect of council house sales by Thatcher from 1980 means that those mortgages matured 20+ years later and those owners retired with no rent costs, thus higher disposable pension income?

Probably.

As somebody who turned 66 this year, I really notice the difference between being a poor working age person and being a poor pensioner - I'd rather be a poor pensioner any day - to be honest, I feel positively rich.

The chart confirms Whitewave's OP. Pensioner poverty started falling under Blair's Labour government, but has started increasing again. The OP omitted the comparison with other demographic groups, which is the point I'm making.

skydancer with fluctuating interest rates and austerity, the idea that you could save for old age is a bit of a nonsense unless you can invest significant amounts.
Property has been the mainstay of personal income growth in the UK, boosted by Thatcherite selling off of council houses, and look where that's got us!
Now, some young people are able to set up home via money coming down from grandparents and some are barely able to rent assuming they can actually find a rental available. I don't think Rees Mogg and his crew got their money through saving, nor is running the country the same as running a household!

I think pensioner bashing by the younger generation has gone on longer than recently. About 40 years ago I can remember talk of pensioners raking in the money and having a good lifestyle.

AGAA4

I wish the government would do more to help poorer pensioners. I have a pension from work but many couldn't afford to pay into one.
I don't think pension credit is enough and if the triple lock goes then some people will suffer and old age isn't kind.

How can you increase pension credit without increasing the basic state pension which for 35 years of paying in is only £2 a week more than pension credit and has none of the automatic extra entitlements that PC gives.

growstuff

Whitewavemark2

grow I’m not sure what you mean. I have identified the % of pensioners in poverty according to the Rowntree Trust.

I am not concerned with better off pensioners, but only those who will be hit by the cut in pension and rising cost of living.

So assuming that the Rowntree figures are correct I’m not quite sure what you are saying.

I'm agreeing with you.

Even now, pensioners as a group are better off on average than they were 15 or 20 years ago - or at any time in the past. The increase has stalled and is going backwards, but they are still better off than in the past and relative to other groups in society. Pensioners, even now, have a higher safety net than others.

I do not agree that pensioner poverty should be considered as a separate issue from poverty generally. It's pitting one group against another.

PS. Please note the word "average".

Oh thank you for your reply. Evenings are not the best time for my brain.

I take your point about division. But, hitting those who are least able to help themselves, like children in poverty seems a particularly unpleasant political policy.

I see the DM is talking about a hit of £2000 per person. That is huge, and sufficient to put many on the breadline.

I don't suppose that the government has set out to hit any particular demographic group as a deliberate policy. The reason children are living in poverty is because their parents have too little money. There are many causes for that, including insecure/poorly paid work, high housing and childcare costs, etc.

The UK has become a society where more money can be made by owning property and other assets than going out to work. As JillyJosie posted, it's extremely difficult to save from earned income, unless there's an inheritance. Inequality is increasing for all age groups, not just pensioners and children. Fundamental change is needed beyond tinkering with pensions, taxes and benefits and dividing people into factions fighting each other.

Ilovecheese

It seems to be in the Governments interest to pit generations against each other. Otherwise why raise N.I. instead of Income Tax.
If they had kept the triple lock and raised income tax, we would all have been able to contribute.
The triple lock would have been raising the State pension for future generations, and richer pensioners would have paid more in tax.

This is so logical that it's hard to see any other reasoning behind the decision.

Divide and Rule.

...a policy which is intended to keep someone in a position of power by causing disagreements between people who might otherwise unite against them. Ministers will offer inducements to some, in an attempt to divide and rule. (Collins English Dictionary)

Could it be any clearer?

Dickens

Ilovecheese

It seems to be in the Governments interest to pit generations against each other. Otherwise why raise N.I. instead of Income Tax.
If they had kept the triple lock and raised income tax, we would all have been able to contribute.
The triple lock would have been raising the State pension for future generations, and richer pensioners would have paid more in tax.

This is so logical that it's hard to see any other reasoning behind the decision.

Divide and Rule.

...a policy which is intended to keep someone in a position of power by causing disagreements between people who might otherwise unite against them. Ministers will offer inducements to some, in an attempt to divide and rule. (Collins English Dictionary)

Could it be any clearer?

Well, if this is so, doesn't it behove us, as mature adults, to rise above it and fight the government that is inflicting/encouraging intergenerational strife?

I was not able to be in the NHS pension scheme because I worked part time. My children were at primary school so I needed to take them in the morning and collect them after school. I was only able to join the scheme when I went full time a few years later. Consequently my pension now is much lower than my husband's. If I was on my own I don't know how I would manage. It was hard work keeping all the balls in the air when I had young children, why should I be worse off because I was a responsible parent.

MaizieD

Dickens

Ilovecheese

It seems to be in the Governments interest to pit generations against each other. Otherwise why raise N.I. instead of Income Tax.
If they had kept the triple lock and raised income tax, we would all have been able to contribute.
The triple lock would have been raising the State pension for future generations, and richer pensioners would have paid more in tax.

This is so logical that it's hard to see any other reasoning behind the decision.

Divide and Rule.

...a policy which is intended to keep someone in a position of power by causing disagreements between people who might otherwise unite against them. Ministers will offer inducements to some, in an attempt to divide and rule. (Collins English Dictionary)

Could it be any clearer?

Well, if this is so, doesn't it behove us, as mature adults, to rise above it and fight the government that is inflicting/encouraging intergenerational strife?

... absolutely!

But people need to be convinced, and I'm not sure they are.

I've encountered so many who believe that 'Boris' is "doing his best" to deal with the problems thrown up by the Pandemic and Brexit.

Personally, I believe he's doing his best to make sure he and his party remain in power. I'm not even convinced that any other party would behave differently.

But our ‘one-person-takes-all’ disproportionate voting system is what we've got, the electorate does not seem to want a Proportional or Mixed Voting system. And to remain in power, the elected party will always have to use all or any means to maintain that power. If that means dividing the nation among itself, so be it - that appears to be what people prefer rather than working together across the political divide and doing what is best for the country as a whole.

And to make matters even worse, changes to the social care cap mean that those with relatively low assets will lose almost everything if they need care, while the richest will hardly be affected:

inews.co.uk/news/politics/social-care-cap-change-sneaked-out-by-ministers-will-hit-red-wall-and-protect-the-rich-1306715?fbclid=IwAR1Hf3vcjiX1zXHeFlgBhzQSZX_OXV5SDg84UKzINZWRWS1doOZsesJR_II

The majority of people over 60 voted Conservative in the last election. I remember reading a comment (not sure if it was on GN) that the Conservatives wouldn't dare mess pensioners about because they're their core voters. Well, any over 60s who aren't wealthy and did vote Conservative and believed that, have been conned.

I've noticed that several of the GNers on this thread haven't reached pension age yet, ie being younger than 65, the age I was when I received the state Pension.

When I first started work, in the mid sixties it was for large insurance companies where pension schemes existed but you had to have been in their employ for 2 or 3 years before you could join the scheme. After leaving school I had no idea what I wanted to do, apart from leave home which I did. A third of my (gross) salary was used to pay my rent. There was no mention of private pension schemes at that time.

My DH and I bought our first house in 1979. It was a wreck and, for complicated reasons we effectively paid two mortgages. My DH was self employed, as was I during some of the that time. All our spare time and money went into the house. For at least a year we had to visit friends for baths and showers.

In 1982 I joined one of the top 3 accountancy practices and they operated a proper pension scheme, for which I am thankful as it gives me a small pension (about £200 per month). I also had a small number of clients of my own and my DH and I took out a pension plan with Equitable Life and we all know what happened to that.

Throughout our working life we paid into the State system but I always anticipated that our home would eventually pay for social care and I don't have a problem with that.

I'm relating my history because I think that there are probably many like me who didn't know about or couldn't afford to pay into private schemes. Furthermore, there are thousands of people who paid into a pension scheme whose funds disappeared - such as the Mirror Group and BHS - and they have been left without a pension that they had contributed to.

Most people are able to make choices throughout their lives. But some people can't and it is for that reason I am against the cancelling of the triple lock. I'm now 74 and still working. Luckily I enjoy what I do. If I didn't work there are many things that I could no longer afford, such as high quality varifocal lenses or the insulin for my diabetic dog. I worry that my brain is going and at some point I will have to stop work. But there are some people aren't able to continue to work. We should be taking better care of those people.

When I first started work the basic rate of income tax was 35% and the highest rate was 83%. At that time mortgage interest relief and pension premium relief was available at the higher rates. This meant that anyone paying say £1000 to a pension company would in effect pay just £187. Obviously they would pay over the £1000 and get credit for the balance when they settled their annual tax bills. But this is one reason why the elderly rich have such decent pensions.

Dinahmo As you're 74 now, you received your state pension when you were 60, not 65.

Having always done quite menial jobs I have never paid into a private pension scheme. Anyway I am 68 and still working part time in a care home and luckily enough I do love my job but my pension, my state pension, of £652 a month is certainly not enough for me to live on Even though I don’t drink drive or smoke it would just be an existence if i had to manage on that £652..

It depends whether you have housing costs Shiname.

Growstuff So I did. I told you all my brain's going.

I don’t have a mortgage or rent luckily enough but I do have council tax,gas and electric,well you know all the usual utilities that everyone has… at the moment I am paying back an Overpayment to HMRC of £15 a month and I’ve just started going to the gym which is really helping my mental state and that is £28 a month. I really don’t know how some people would manage on just the state pension if they had rent or mortgage to pay

Neither do I shinamae. Even with pension credit and whatever other benefits may be available it must be a miserable existence. I do hope you will be able to get that pension topped up to a more realistic figure.