Scrapping HS2 for those further north

Casdon has a point, growstuff;

Manchester to London, 56 trains per day, approx 200 miles, journey time just over 2.5 hours
Milford Haven and Pembroke Dock to London, 8-10 trains per day (every couple of hours), no through trains, journey time nearly 8.5 hours.
2 coach chugger trains sardine-packed with the many Newport/London/Swansea commuters (that would incidentally choke the 4 lane M4)

The North may be more densely populated (and I’m not even sure that is true of the South Wales rather than West Wales conurbations), but perhaps you can appreciate why those living more peripherally are exasperated by those complaining about the loss of even more time shaved off their much shorter journey times.

And of course, with a lot of investment and relocation to the north of England, might not the residents prefer improved existing rail infrastructure to more rapid journeys to the much-resented South East?

I was born in Brighton but I have lived in West Yorkshire for over 40 years, mostly just outside of Bradford. Once again this city has been shafted as has the whole of the north above Birmingham. Promises broken, transport links scrapped so the city is more isolated from the rest of the country and the economy again. Nobody I know wanted this rail link. It would have made little or no difference to times to other places. Real progress and investment was needed in local infrastructure such as buses, trains, cycle routes and I think this is true for all of the north. I went to London for the day yesterday and it took me just over 2 1/4 hours. The underground was cheaper than my getting a bus to my local town. I have one bus an hour and I live in a popular suburb of Bradford.
People sold their homes at market rates to the Gov when H2S was announced and did not have to. They lost thousands through a hair brained scheme which was doomed from the outset.
No wonder many of us in the north feel marginalised by Westminster and I include my local MP in this . He never backs us. Why don’t they speak to local people and work on our ideas/ suggestions as we live here. Get the rail network up to a European standard, invest in local networks, get more buses on routes. It is not rocket science!

Josianne

I am of the opinion we just can't afford it at present. The pandemic re allocated the money set aside for it and in terms of the environmental issues I am pleased.

This. I think the whole project should be cancelled.
The existing trains aren't full, they're planning to add extra capacity but charging more, then leaving you 20 minutes or so outside the cities - no time is saved.
It's cheaper already to go by car, would you want to pay double the existing high cost and save no time - with the added inconvenience of having to use public transport or taxis to finish your journey.

during the election campaign 2019 so many lies were told by Boris & the press I'm no longer surprised. For example people were concerned about US private medical firms buying into our NHS, and that is exactly what is happening now. The papers twisted the concerns round to say 'does trump want to buy our NHS' the answer in the article was no. And its true, Trump didn't want it, but US health companies did and that is exactly what is happening now. Boris lied and said whatever suited him to get into power, and many are experiencing remorse now, he deserves to be dumped at the next election

HS2 was only ever going to serve people with money to burn. Who can afford train fares at the moment? HS2 would be super expensive. At such a cost to the environment it was never worth it just to save a bit of time on travel. Upgrading existing track and stock is a much more sensible solution combined with a timetable that is actually useful and accurate.

Why anyone believed BJ in the first place is beyond me. Why are we surprised that he has cancelled HS2 from Birmingham. His history of broken promises, lies, indecisive bad decision making has left a trail of destruction and people's lives ruined even before he came to power. Brexit, COVID 19, the hostages in Iran because the government refuse to honour a contract, EU and Northern Ireland treaty, the list is endless and should have been a warning to all those that voted for him. BJ can not be trusted with our country and lives. All we hear now is his colleagues trying to justify his decision making even when it is becoming obvious they don't agree with them either and is starting to question his integratory.

As for HS2, we are now witnessing the senseless destruction of ancient sites and environment as this line is being built in the South from London to Birmingham. Here in the south we are well served by a good service, okay it is over crowded but that just suggest putting more trains on when needed. Where I live we can reach London in 45 minutes and Birmingham 90 minutes with trains every 20 minutes.
We protested all along the line we don't need HS2 because to use it you have to go either to London or Birmingham but no one listened. When we suggested that the line began in Leeds is was on deaf ears. BJ was adamant it would happen and he would be the saviour of the North South divide; especially as it is private money and a private business enterprise with no monetary cost to the tax payer.
The problem with that decision is that private finances is an unpredictable business and COVID got in the way, sadly too late to stop the HS2 destruction from London to Birmingham.

Ayse isn't Scotland responsible for its own railways - Scotrans I think. I have been made aware of some lines being reinstated in a part of Scotland including two stations only a mile apart. My friend is furious with all the money being spent on two stops when she can't even get a bus into a village a mile away. Seems it's not only Westminster that comes up with questionable ideas.

They should have started in the north instead of splashing all the cash on the south (again). Apparently the Oxford/ Cambridge link is still going ahead, who would have guessed?. Manchester to Leeds/Bradford and Birmingham to Manchester are soooo slow and overcrowded.

Does anyone have any idea how many years this will take?

4allweknow

Ayse isn't Scotland responsible for its own railways - Scotrans I think. I have been made aware of some lines being reinstated in a part of Scotland including two stations only a mile apart. My friend is furious with all the money being spent on two stops when she can't even get a bus into a village a mile away. Seems it's not only Westminster that comes up with questionable ideas.

I really don’t know. Nevertheless, public transport if affordable is more environmentally friendly than private cars or flying.

We need a public transport system that works for everyone not just those who want and can afford to travel higher speeds. Villages need to be connected to towns, who need to be connected nationwide. No government has an overall plan to improve public transport across our nations and its affordability for many people is questionable.

Woodhead rail route was the first electrified line in the country and the longest tunnel in world too! In 1970 against beachings report oddly! The government decided to cease all passengers transport from Manchester to Sheffield and Leeds completely! Good move eh? Since then it's been a real hot subject with constant lobbying to get the route reinstated as it's costing so much in pollution and environmental damage by having all the 1000s of tons of freight driven on either the M1 or on tiny B and rural routes used as ratruns in massive artics. We never thought we'd get it made here anyway- we're ok for paying taxes into the pot, but woe betide if we want anything in return! That bunch of tossers in Westminster told barefaced lies simply to gain votes when Corbyn turned labour into the British branch of the commie party ensuring they would never get in! Now it's all over? Try and tell us that giving us real carriages instead of buses bolted to bogeys with a garden ladder as a safety exit(true) should make us whoop and holler and be so grateful...........

leeds22

They should have started in the north instead of splashing all the cash on the south (again). Apparently the Oxford/ Cambridge link is still going ahead, who would have guessed?. Manchester to Leeds/Bradford and Birmingham to Manchester are soooo slow and overcrowded.

Yes, of course they should.

I never really understood the north-south divide until living north of Birmingham.

kwal

HS2 was only ever going to serve people with money to burn. Who can afford train fares at the moment? HS2 would be super expensive. At such a cost to the environment it was never worth it just to save a bit of time on travel. Upgrading existing track and stock is a much more sensible solution combined with a timetable that is actually useful and accurate.

Here's the real rub. If it was going to take a mere 1.5 hours or less to get from London to Leeds/Manchester etc who do you think would benefit? The odd day trippers off to that London for a show ?or the gardener's world live at Birmingham? NOPE!!! Those overpaid overindulged greedy so and SO's in the south who would literally invade the north, swapping a one bed flat in pjmlico or a drab terrace in bushey for a detached gentlemen's residence with 4 acres and a lake........ And still hàve enough money to get the kids into stoneyhurst and the missus a new Tesla. Do they think we're stupid? We know why they want speedy links, cos the south is getting so overcrowded they're eyeballing our green and pleasant lands up here! You only have to see the utter devastating views and state of the railways after you pass Birmingham on the way north to see where all the budget is spent!

But this is all short term thinking. We’ve got to think about what the future of transport will be in this country in 20/30/40 years time. We have a Victorian railway system now. I’m not saying that HS2 is the answer but we need to think to the future because we’re just kicking the can down the road. And the cost is never going to go down.

Gabrielle56

kwal

HS2 was only ever going to serve people with money to burn. Who can afford train fares at the moment? HS2 would be super expensive. At such a cost to the environment it was never worth it just to save a bit of time on travel. Upgrading existing track and stock is a much more sensible solution combined with a timetable that is actually useful and accurate.

Here's the real rub. If it was going to take a mere 1.5 hours or less to get from London to Leeds/Manchester etc who do you think would benefit? The odd day trippers off to that London for a show ?or the gardener's world live at Birmingham? NOPE!!! Those overpaid overindulged greedy so and SO's in the south who would literally invade the north, swapping a one bed flat in pjmlico or a drab terrace in bushey for a detached gentlemen's residence with 4 acres and a lake........ And still hàve enough money to get the kids into stoneyhurst and the missus a new Tesla. Do they think we're stupid? We know why they want speedy links, cos the south is getting so overcrowded they're eyeballing our green and pleasant lands up here! You only have to see the utter devastating views and state of the railways after you pass Birmingham on the way north to see where all the budget is spent!

Me! Hands up! I'd benefit. My daughter lives in Manchester and my son lives in Newcastle. When I visit them, I always travel by train, as my feet and legs aren't up to driving long distances.

I always travel using the cheapest tickets during the day or weekend, using my Senior Railcard. My fellow passengers don't look like business people. They look like ordinary people visiting family or friends.

PS. I'm not overpaid or overindulged and I certainly couldn't afford a Tesla - and I definitely don't have a missus.

PPS. Break the journey into sections. I've found some really good deals, which are cheaper than travelling by car.

leeds22

They should have started in the north instead of splashing all the cash on the south (again). Apparently the Oxford/ Cambridge link is still going ahead, who would have guessed?. Manchester to Leeds/Bradford and Birmingham to Manchester are soooo slow and overcrowded.

The Oxford/Cambridge link needs doing. At the moment, I have to do a triangle, travelling into London if I want to go anywhere to the west of where I live.

Nevertheless, I agree that the Manchester/Leeds (including Liverpool) link is more urgent - I've been a frequent traveller on that line for years, so I have experience of it. If Hull were included, it would really alleviate employment problems on that part of the east coast.

Oofy

Casdon has a point, growstuff;

Manchester to London, 56 trains per day, approx 200 miles, journey time just over 2.5 hours
Milford Haven and Pembroke Dock to London, 8-10 trains per day (every couple of hours), no through trains, journey time nearly 8.5 hours.
2 coach chugger trains sardine-packed with the many Newport/London/Swansea commuters (that would incidentally choke the 4 lane M4)

The North may be more densely populated (and I’m not even sure that is true of the South Wales rather than West Wales conurbations), but perhaps you can appreciate why those living more peripherally are exasperated by those complaining about the loss of even more time shaved off their much shorter journey times.

And of course, with a lot of investment and relocation to the north of England, might not the residents prefer improved existing rail infrastructure to more rapid journeys to the much-resented South East?

How many people live in Greater Manchester? How many people live in Milford Haven? Have you ever travelled on a Manchester to London train? They're usually packed. Liverpool to Manchester is even worse. It doesn't take 8.5 hours from Milford Haven to London. It's less than 5 hours, changing in Swansea.

Gabrielle How come I've managed to travel from Manchester to Leeds on direct trains? There are two options - unfortunately, the faster route is usually packed, but it's not true that it's been stopped.

ayse

4allweknow

Ayse isn't Scotland responsible for its own railways - Scotrans I think. I have been made aware of some lines being reinstated in a part of Scotland including two stations only a mile apart. My friend is furious with all the money being spent on two stops when she can't even get a bus into a village a mile away. Seems it's not only Westminster that comes up with questionable ideas.

I really don’t know. Nevertheless, public transport if affordable is more environmentally friendly than private cars or flying.

We need a public transport system that works for everyone not just those who want and can afford to travel higher speeds. Villages need to be connected to towns, who need to be connected nationwide. No government has an overall plan to improve public transport across our nations and its affordability for many people is questionable.

I agree that villages need to be connected to the main rail networks, but I'm not convinced that rail travel is the best way to do that. I'd rather see an integrated bus/train service.

I don’t know if people realise HS2 would not stop anywhere. No freight or anything. I’m living in HS2 land and it is diabolical - no advantage to us and INCREDIBLE disruption. Just so people can get to Birmingham ( not the centre) 20 mins earlier. No one will be able to afford the fair (as in Spain ).
They should have built the Northern HS2 first…. they deserve it

Most of the problems would be solved if Parliament moved, lock, stock and barrel, to Manchester. Its more central to the country as a whole - and on higher ground.

Or Leeds might be better!

OMG please don’t send BJ to Leeds permanently ! I would be protesting endlessly ?.

Norfolk has few train stations and no motorways. Very many bus routes in the county involve going into Norwich to get a connection out.
HS2 is an extravagance, that I doubt will be economical, given the exorbitant cost of any railway journey, and the fact that the envisaged customers will be on business related journeys. Will there be sufficient numbers to make the line viable? . Upgrading existing lines is not as destructive to surrounding areas or costly, but the thing that really needs changing to make train networks pay their way is to make tickets affordable and recoup revenue by volume.