What will the judiciary do?

Sorry your link didn’t work. I don’t need a lecture in law, international or otherwise, it was my profession for almost 40 years. You need to understand the difference between deficit and debt.

GSMUnder international law, the entity that borrows this debt, in the case the UK, will be solely responsible for the debt accrued by that entity ( UK ). Scotland will legally not be liable for any of the debt built up by the current and past UK governments. If the UK was actually paying off the debt ( currently it only pays the interest on the debt ) then Scotland would be liable for a share. This is a fact.

.
This Scotland has debt argument, has about as much substance as the " too wee , too poor " argument. It has been debunked.
We must ensure that these falsehoods are not believed again. The facts are out there ( mostly ) to be found. You just have to dig deep. Thankfully, there are sensible folk spending time debunking every lie.
Saor Alba 2023.
www.thenational.scot/.../19743645.kate-forbes.../...

Prison will only affect the extremists who protest about everything while living on benefits, the vast majority of offenses would be dealt with by fines or community sentences. The prospect of a heavy fine for a first offence would make the majority think twice before disruptive protesting.

What makes you so sure of that, Katie59?

Is this the old 'if you've done nothing wrong, you've nothing to fear' argument?

Katie59

MaizieD

Whitewavemark2

Alegrias1

But we already have laws to deal with that.

Exactly

I believe that the police were pointing that out, too, when the Bill was first published. It's populist window dressing. But scary, all the same, especially the proposed prison sentences...

Prison will only affect the extremists who protest about everything while living on benefits, the vast majority of offenses would be dealt with by fines or community sentences. The prospect of a heavy fine for a first offence would make the majority think twice before disruptive protesting.

Are you talking about the existing law?

Whitewavemark2

The only conclusion that I can draw from this draconian and unnecessary bill is that the government is intent on reducing our civil liberties and controlling dissent.

They (government) are well aware there is a lot of dissent - on both sides of the divide, on the Pandemic issues, Brexit, Climate, and Immigration.

There have already been protests, and I think the anti-Leave contingent are planning for post-Covid demonstrations. If there ever is a 'post-Covid'.

I think they are genuinely afraid of civil strife - I won't say civil war, but even that doesn't seem so remote a possibility as it once did.

The RW media - tabloids in particular - are continually stirring the pot, keeping up the angst and fuelling the restlessness.

I have little optimism for the near future of this country. That letter to "Dear Emmanuel" posted on social media was the last straw for me. I will not rant, I'm too depressed, and too deflated to get into an argument with GN'ers who are pro-Johnson. But this is really NOT the way to conduct international relations.

MaizieD

Whitewavemark2

Alegrias1

But we already have laws to deal with that.

Exactly

I believe that the police were pointing that out, too, when the Bill was first published. It's populist window dressing. But scary, all the same, especially the proposed prison sentences...

Prison will only affect the extremists who protest about everything while living on benefits, the vast majority of offenses would be dealt with by fines or community sentences. The prospect of a heavy fine for a first offence would make the majority think twice before disruptive protesting.

Dare I mention the word 'dictatorship' ?

I guess I do dare because the usual deriders of signs of a slide into dictatorship won't be bothering to read this thread.

Agreed WWM2

The only conclusion that I can draw from this draconian and unnecessary bill is that the government is intent on reducing our civil liberties and controlling dissent.

Whitewavemark2

Alegrias1

But we already have laws to deal with that.

Exactly

I believe that the police were pointing that out, too, when the Bill was first published. It's populist window dressing. But scary, all the same, especially the proposed prison sentences...

GSM FACT ,when oil was dicovered in SCOTTISH waters the UK was in deep financial difficulties ,look up when the £ was tied to the USA for security or when the IMF became involved in UK finance ,the sick man of Europe they called us.Fast forward just a few years when oil was giving the UK treasury £60 A SECOND and Whisky £38 a minute ,,,are you really telling me that Scotland is /was too poor to support ourselves? Norway took less oil out and has a £3 TRillion oil fund!!
England was developed off the back of Scottish oil,but that is gone now we know and we always though it would eb a bonus BUT in its place we have renewables powering 97% of our needs and growing by the day ...we even send up to 30% south to england yet Electricity is more expensive here than in the south of England AND we have tp pay to put it on the "national grid" Some union this!! Every other supplier who contributes to to grid GETS PAID .
If you can let me know when you wre promoted to head admin and given the power to tell me when and what to post then and only then will I stop telling the truth about the toxic union .Now I have a very sick relative to visit so I'll wish you a good day .

Alegrias1

But we already have laws to deal with that.

Exactly

But we already have laws to deal with that.

The problem with protesters is when they damage property or stop others going about their lawful business. This is what needs to be addressed.

Dickens

I think it's a slippery slope. A minefield in fact.

Protests are by nature 'loud', and the mere presence of a group whose ideology you oppose, is 'annoying'.

It's so ambiguous. I see trouble ahead.

Right, and they are exercising their right to protest upheld by the courts.

The question is that is the spirit of the law being undermined by the new police act?

paddyann54

"GSM" We dont have a deficit ,we cant borrow .The debt is Westminsters money spent on our behalf....lol on things like London crossrail and London sewers and 9 Billion for HS2 that stops over 200 miles from our border.I do wish people at least attempted to find out facts before spouting the usual rubbish! Scotland is by far the richest country in the "union" why on earth do you think WM is so desperate to hold onto us..WE pay their debts !1

paddyann54

Do you have any authoritative articles on this topic that you can point people too? It could be helpful to refer to expert knowledge rather than swop 'opinion', particularly when the anti independence 'opinion' is rather aggressively stated.

As you know, I've always supported your desire for independence. I just wish the Scottish border was a bit further south and took in Co.Durham

Katie59

paddyann54

"GSM" We dont have a deficit ,we cant borrow .The debt is Westminsters money spent on our behalf....lol on things like London crossrail and London sewers and 9 Billion for HS2 that stops over 200 miles from our border.I do wish people at least attempted to find out facts before spouting the usual rubbish! Scotland is by far the richest country in the "union" why on earth do you think WM is so desperate to hold onto us..WE pay their debts !1

I wish it was £9bn typo there
Only part of debt is QE , either way we all are living far beyond our means, it’s been a long time since the books balanced.

As for Scotland, I would vote to get rid of it tomorrow.

A very large proportion of the 'debt' is QE, some £245 billion IIRR. It is theoretically 'owed' to the Bank of England, but as it is 'created' money and it is the BoE that issues our currency the BoE isn't going to demand it be repaid any time soon. Without that our 'debt' is a far smaller proportion of GDP.

The rest of the 'debt', as I have pointed out several times, is 'investments' in government bonds, Nationals savings and any government investment vehicle. People and institutions invest in these because they know it is a safe place to put their money; the government which issues its own money will not default on what it theoretically 'owes' to its investors.

As I've also asked before, if you have savings in a National Savings account, or Premium Bonds or Treasury Bonds would you actually want the government to suddenly pay it all back to you, unasked? What would you do with it then?(P.S 'you' in this sentence is people in general, not 'you' specifically)

I can understand why Scotland want to leave. I have been to Scotland many times and have only found kindness from the friendly Scots I have met apart from the beautiful coastline and countryside so I would selfishly not want to them to leave but wish them luck in their endeavours if they want to go.

I think it's a slippery slope. A minefield in fact.

Protests are by nature 'loud', and the mere presence of a group whose ideology you oppose, is 'annoying'.

It's so ambiguous. I see trouble ahead.

It doesn't matter if I do it as well GSM. I do pick people up on their posts if they are factually incorrect or something similar, but not just if I don't like the cut of their jib. (gib?)

I'm afraid that "he did it so I can it as well" isn't a defence in law.

Just noticed that it had happened several times in the space of a few days.

And not wishing to make this about the I-word or the B-word - did the people of the EU get a vote on Brexit?

Did someone say specious?

Really alegrias? You never pick people up on their posts of course. You may recall that I mentioned propaganda in connection with someone who constantly posted links to a particular website. And I can recognise the same old phrases being trotted out by people who have heard and decided to believe them. A bit like plagiarism - you know you’ve heard it all before. Of course people disagree. On the question of Scottish independence (and Welsh which is being dredged up again), if the English were given a vote I too would be in favour so I think we agree on that one?

Alegrias many situations can tip over into violence. Protests very often do. I am not against protests and would join some I feel strongly about but know that very often people join protests for the pure malice of causing disruption and violence and people get hurt.
Protests must go on and I don't know what the answer is to stop those who become loud and abusive in these situations.

Thanks Katie59, we feel the same about you.

(Qualifying statement: Is it any wonder many of us want to get out of here?)

paddyann54

"GSM" We dont have a deficit ,we cant borrow .The debt is Westminsters money spent on our behalf....lol on things like London crossrail and London sewers and 9 Billion for HS2 that stops over 200 miles from our border.I do wish people at least attempted to find out facts before spouting the usual rubbish! Scotland is by far the richest country in the "union" why on earth do you think WM is so desperate to hold onto us..WE pay their debts !1

I wish it was £9bn typo there
Only part of debt is QE , either way we all are living far beyond our means, it’s been a long time since the books balanced.

As for Scotland, I would vote to get rid of it tomorrow.

With no prejudice GSM...

That's third time in the last couple of days you've tried to tell people what they need to be posting and at least twice you've accused people of propaganda.

People disagree with us about things. We all have to live with it.