The foolishness of anti-vaxxers

Not hyperbole.

Hyperbole is suggesting we charge people for medical attention and force them to have medical treatment against their will.

How does marginalising people even more and ignoring their concerns mean we are all pulling together? Specious wartime analogies don't cut it, sorry.

Alegrias1

That's fair enough WWM2. But if we got to the stage of only targeting/fining/withholding treatment from the extremists at the school gates, how do we differentiate them from the people who are just not convinced? Or are just frightened?

Or shall we just sanction everybody to make sure we scoop us all the extremists, just in case?

Fining them or whatever doesn't show how foolish their claims are, it plays into the hands of the conspiracists who are trying to say that the state wants to control our lives.

Hyperbole.

I’m not suggesting any of those things. I am arguing what I think is a more rational case.

We all pull together, just as we all do in a conventional war.

Make no mistake this is a war we are fighting - a biological war, and we must use every tool at our disposal to rid ourselves of this enemy.

There is a false dichotomy here (well, several, but I'll just mention this one)

Not having a highly vaxxed population means that there is more Covid about and so people have to wait for other treatments. True.

The only way to deal with this is to criminalise the unvaxxed. False.

We have not had such a medical crisis in living memory. We have been lulled into a false sense of security by decades of medical progress on infectious disease prevention. It is a shock to the system to suddenly find how powerless we are in the face of this virus.

Some of the anti-vaxxers just cannot seem to grasp that we are faced with a whole new scenario - that mother nature is asserting herself and we are not as invincible as we might have thought. The "I am fit and have a good immune system" brigade have not grasped that the goal posts have moved.

As for those who believe the conspiracy theories - they a re barking mad.

That's fair enough WWM2. But if we got to the stage of only targeting/fining/withholding treatment from the extremists at the school gates, how do we differentiate them from the people who are just not convinced? Or are just frightened?

Or shall we just sanction everybody to make sure we scoop us all the extremists, just in case?

Fining them or whatever doesn't show how foolish their claims are, it plays into the hands of the conspiracists who are trying to say that the state wants to control our lives.

Yet our own NHS is still not fully vaccinated.

Franbern:

'Obese and type 2 diabetes comes immediately to mind, as does sports injuries, drunk/drug induced illnesses' - none of those are a threat to the health of those with suppressed immune systems and pre-existing conditions.

Are you saying that the vulnerable have to accept increased risks, longer waits, poorer treatments - because of the 'rights' of the selfish?

Alegrias1

Its about punishment Franbern and nightowl. The desire to punish all those stupid anti-vaxxers because they are threatening the very fabric of society. It’s not about getting as many people vaxxed as possible, which is actually what we want, its just about showing that we’re much cleverer than them and more willing to save our fellow man, we’re in the right and they’re in the wrong.

So what about the people that are frightened because they believe they’ve heard about side effects? Punish them!!

What about people who are concerned about long term effects? Punish them!!

What about people who don’t follow every twist and turn of the pandemic and maybe just don’t realise how important it is? Punish them!!

Because trying to explain the facts better and win them over is much harder and doesn’t allow anyone to sit on the sidelines polishing their halo.

That is your interpretation, but certainly not mine.

No for me it is about irrationality, and the common good.

I am talking about those who stand outside of school gates or post ridiculous claims on social media.

It is my way of pushing back, by showing how foolish their claims are.

I wish everybody would get vaccinated, and can even accept that you might be barred from certain roles (care of the extremely vulnerable for example) if you refuse. However, being vaccinated does not mean you can't catch the virus or infect other people, even if your own illness is likely to be much milder. Is anyone really willing to withhold treatment from the unvaccinated?

I like others do not understand people who refuse the vaccine, in the past I have respected those who refuse vaccination for flu etc. I am aware that some are exempt and that others have had serious side effects from the covid vaccination. However this is a global pandemic!!!! We have a close family member who eventually after very heavy persuasion had the first two vaccinations and is now refusing the booster! He had no vaccine side effects. We also have family members with cancer one who has a terminal diognosis and four small children -they have all been vaccinated. You are correct Franbern, many people who believe conspiracy theories are well educated, we know one and that's a fact . Bizarre !!!

Its about punishment Franbern and nightowl. The desire to punish all those stupid anti-vaxxers because they are threatening the very fabric of society. It’s not about getting as many people vaxxed as possible, which is actually what we want, its just about showing that we’re much cleverer than them and more willing to save our fellow man, we’re in the right and they’re in the wrong.

So what about the people that are frightened because they believe they’ve heard about side effects? Punish them!!

What about people who are concerned about long term effects? Punish them!!

What about people who don’t follow every twist and turn of the pandemic and maybe just don’t realise how important it is? Punish them!!

Because trying to explain the facts better and win them over is much harder and doesn’t allow anyone to sit on the sidelines polishing their halo.

nightowl

Franbern I am very frightened by people’s responses to those who don’t have the vaccine. I think we are seeing how easily people can take up extremely authoritarian positions and history tells us where this can lead. There have always been diseases with public health aspects but I am not aware that there has ever been a suggestion of compulsory vaccination ‘to protect others’ or sanctions for non-compliance. This is not a world I want to live in.

Quite.

But can you see why anti-vaxxers appear so irrational?

Franbern I am very frightened by people’s responses to those who don’t have the vaccine. I think we are seeing how easily people can take up extremely authoritarian positions and history tells us where this can lead. There have always been diseases with public health aspects but I am not aware that there has ever been a suggestion of compulsory vaccination ‘to protect others’ or sanctions for non-compliance. This is not a world I want to live in.

I have to agree that I am bewildered, to say the least, as to antivaxers strange conspiracy theories. And, not all of those people are uneducated.

However, I am also rather frightened at the responses by people who seem to want to cast these people into some sort of leper role.
If anti-vaxers get charged if (when) they become ill from Covid and need hospitisation, then do we extend that to everybody who needs medical assistance due to their life styles and personal choices? Obese and type 2 diabetes comes immediately to mind, as does sports injuries, drunk/drug induced illnesses, etc. etc.

It is bad enough - very bad indeed, that the NHS is being run down and increasingly privatised - resulting in the fact that it really is no longer fit for purpose despite the valient work by most NHS staff. We need to get away from putting monetary value on everything and anything.

I can understand that those without prove of their up-to-date vaccinations ( not just covid), should not be allowed into many public places BUT fines just mean that the rich can go along with it and,once again, it is the poorer elements of society who suffer the most.

Petera, normally, I'd agree about lines being drawn - but there's a difference here. There's a threat to public health, a risk of infecting others.

It is still not mandatory for NHS staff to be vaccinated.
Our local NHS trust has now closed our local hospitals to visitors.
So the staff can be unvaccinated, spend the weekend out in pubs and clubs and turn up for work.
The patients cannot have a visitor even if that visitor shows a vaccination record or negative test.

Sago I'm sorry about your SIL and hope he makes a good recovery.

Of course it's everyone's right to refuse the vaccine - some people are hesitant and have concerns and need reassurance but that's not the case with the anti-vax rent a mob, they make crazy claims, are anti-science and spread disinformation.

Petera

Whitewavemark2

Perhaps be charged half of the cost?

I understand the inclination, but we really can't start to draw lines. Many people are in hospital for at worst self-inflicted and at best negligent behaviour problems.

You are right of course. But my impatience sometimes gets the better of rational thought.

Amazingly there will be those who refuse the vaccine on those grounds but have botox I do know a young woman who is ridiculously anti vax, so dangerous allegedly, but regularly uses sunbeds so there you go, complete lack of logic

If we charged anti vaxxers for their medical care by the same reasoning obese people and smokers would be charged

It is everyone’s right to refuse the vaccine.

My SIL a very fit and healthy ex athlete ( team GB) is currently seriously ill with a blood clot on each lung after the second Moderna vaccine.

Their 1 year old and 7 year old will not be vaccinated.

My sympathies lie with all those waiting for urgent care (ok, perhaps self-inflicted too):

'the backlog of cancer care, which is thought to be impacting up to 2.4 million people through urgent referrals alone'

www.ippr.org/blog/the-hidden-cost-of-covid-19-on-the-nhs

Whitewavemark2

Perhaps be charged half of the cost?

I understand the inclination, but we really can't start to draw lines. Many people are in hospital for at worst self-inflicted and at best negligent behaviour problems.

Hetty58

WW2, if it hits them in the pocket, even a little, many might change their minds.

Yes. I think that is right. The other thing is how many other unfortunates have they infected?

WW2, if it hits them in the pocket, even a little, many might change their minds.