The foolishness of anti-vaxxers

A few days ago on twitter someone posted a picture of a lung affected by Long Covid. The person it came from had had a double lung transplant because of the damage long covid had caused.

I suppose that it might not have been genuine, but it was certainly not a pretty sight. I might share it for our anti vaxxers...

Have read in the press about people going to covid parties in Austria where they try to catch the virus from infected people there. Also parents taking children to these parties. Apparently one child is in hospital and an antivaxxer died after attending. You couldn't really make this up - the level of stupidity amazes me.

I have managed thank goodness to get my gd to have her 1st vacation she is 21 and was concerned about having the vaccine
After long conversations and as she starts a new job and also because we now have a new strain in the country she had it done, we went to a walk in clinic at Queen Elizabeth hospital and she had her first dose. The nurse told her that a lot of young people had come along over the last couple of weeks and she was glad to see her have it done. I went along with her to give support.
I know we get very angry with the public who won’t have it done but there will always be the underlying fact what will happen in years to come to us. We do put our life in the hands of the NHS and have to trust we come through it ok.
My DH and I have had all 3 and our flu vaccine.

Hmm! Omicron!

glammagran

I have been very pro-vaccine for covid thus far. Had both AZ vaccine in late February and May with very minimal side effects. However the Moderna booster which I was anxious to have asap, laid me out for 10 days or so. Fine on the day but next day heavy painful arm I couldn’t lift then chills in the evening bad enough that had my teeth chattering. Headache/upset stomach too. Worst of all was no sleep even AFTER taking painkillers due to severe joint and muscle pain. Then 2 days later chest pain which left me breathless as it was so painful to breathe. I knew if I phoned 111 I’d be told to call an ambulance so I didn’t. Pain in chest went within one day. 2 days later my right thumb went purple to its base but I have no recollection of any injury or knock to it.

Would I do it again. Yes, but NOT to Moderna,

You are not alone in your reaction to Moderna. I had severe aching joints and fatigue for 24 hours. DH on the other hand said it was like having Covid all over again and suffered as you did for more than a week. I was extremely cautious about Pfizer and Moderna but was OK with AZ for the two primary doses. I’m not sure I’d be taking another booster of Moderna or Pfizer in the future.

I noticed yesterday on the BBC website that AZ have worked out why some people have blood clots. Hoping that AZ will provide a booster.

I’m also hoping that Omicrom willl turn out to be less dangerous even if it is more transmissible. Some are suggesting that Covid will die out naturally next year just as the Spanish flu did in 1918-1919.

I see a leading proponent of anti-vaccine - a chap called Marcus Lamb has died of covid in the USA.

Just think, he would almost certainly still be here if he had the jab.

harmonypuss!!

honeypuss

I would like to correct your quote of my opinion. I later post, that no of course we shouldn’t charge the anti-vaxxer who gets ill with covid.

We are not uncivilised and I absolutely believe fundamentally in our welfare system. Humans are illogical, unreasonable, mad as boxes of frogs, but we have the capacity to be logical, reasonable, empathetic and generous. The way our NHS functions recognises all those strengths and weaknesses.

Long May it last!!

@Whitewavemark2

^Should the unvaccinated receive free hospital treatment for Covid?

We aren’t uncivilised, so yes of course they should.
Perhaps be charged half of the cost?^

I'm sorry, but IMO (other than those who CAN'T have the vaccine for medical reasons), I'd charge anti-vaxxers the FULL price of the treatment if they fell ill with Covid and then wanted treatment.
I could even be tempted to just give them the vaccine whilst they were in hospital coz they'd be having so many other drugs they wouldn't notice it!
Yes, I know, many would say that that's unethical but it's just the way I feel, I'm not a hospital worker so couldn't do it even if I wanted to but I just think these people are spreading the virus around, keeping it virulent in society for far longer than it would be if everyone (who medically could be) was vaccinated.
Grabs tin hat to wait for the fallout ?

Baggs

A lot of people can’t think logically. I hope it’s because they’ve never been taught but it could be simply low intelligence.

Perhaps the Omicron variant has been named for the anti vac/mask brigade. It is, after all, an anagram of moronic. I can’t understand those who complain about still having to wear a mask after having 2 jabs and a booster-after spending nearly a year shielding I’ll do what it takes to have be able to get out and about a bit. The prospect of a yearly booster doesn’t phase me either as it would just go alongside the yearly flu jab I’ve had for the last 30 years. Having said that we’re all entitled to our opinions and views on keeping ourself safe

I have been very pro-vaccine for covid thus far. Had both AZ vaccine in late February and May with very minimal side effects. However the Moderna booster which I was anxious to have asap, laid me out for 10 days or so. Fine on the day but next day heavy painful arm I couldn’t lift then chills in the evening bad enough that had my teeth chattering. Headache/upset stomach too. Worst of all was no sleep even AFTER taking painkillers due to severe joint and muscle pain. Then 2 days later chest pain which left me breathless as it was so painful to breathe. I knew if I phoned 111 I’d be told to call an ambulance so I didn’t. Pain in chest went within one day. 2 days later my right thumb went purple to its base but I have no recollection of any injury or knock to it.

Would I do it again. Yes, but NOT to Moderna,

If humans have been dying from disease for thousands of years, without any vaccinations or interference, then it would seem, as you have just said, that the creator did indeed create perfection if only for the simple reason that the human race is still going, thousands of years later, after however many viruses and whatever else existed during that time. Our creator clearly got something right!

I am completely boggled by the above statement. Are you seriously suggesting that it was perfection for my father to be orphaned by the time he was eleven years old and to lose all three siblings and his niece, all to tuberculosis, within a few short years?

Because of that, I’ve been deprived of the pleasure of grandparents and aunts, uncles and cousins because of this disease. I don’t think much of a creator that inflicts such cruelty.

DD has a PhD in Biochemistry and one of her best friends is an ICU doctor. This is why we have all been vaccinated. Yes DD and her husband caught Covid from their children in spite of being vaccinated but her husband who has serious heart and kidney problems only had a very mild illness. Pre vaccination he would have been dangerously ill.

Anyone worrying about the speed of development or lack of testing should read Vaxxers and find out how it was done.

The research on these vaccines is ongoing. Data continues to be collected. Research continues.

Informed consent to have the jab means fully informed - knowing the full ins and outs of the jab, its side effects and long term consequences. No, we have not been fully told. They say it is safe. Um..... again... what will the effect, if any, be on our bodies in 10 or longer years from now. No, so again we are not getting fully informed.

These are two arguments that I see over and over again on anti-vax/conspiracy theory discussions.

First; do people expect doctors, scientists etc. just to stop collecting data, analysing results, side-effects, doing research as soon as they start using a treatment in the human population? Of course not; they continuing to do it and will keep doing it for many years as is always done with drugs or vaccines. It doesn't mean that the vaccine is 'experimental'!

Secondly, how can we be told what the long-term effects will be when literally NO-ONE in the world has been taking it for ten years! You would have to wait ten years for this information (and the scientists and doctors will keep on keeping on researching). Forgive me, but isn't that obvious?

I'd rather be liberated, I find myself captivated

Why do people keen to tell us that they not anti vax start spouting the most awful rubbish then quote from the X-files?

I have a relative, a professional sports person, they have had COVID, not hospitalised, but insists that they will never have the vaccine, and not only them but most of their team members haven’t been vaccinated either. I couldn’t understand their reasoning, but it seems that many professional sports people will not agree to be vaccinated. Over many conversations, the reason is that when they travel or play they must stay in a bubble, they are tested before and after all games, they obey all Covid rules on quarantine. I have stopped arguing now, as I know I will never change their minds.

I'm not anti-vax. I don't know why the unvaccinated are being called selfish. You can still spread covid, vaccinated or not. You can still get it whether vaccinated or not.

There are some people who are really scared of the rush that the vaccines were made in, about incomplete trials, trials being unblinded, etc.

There are people who are scared as hell about the long term effects of this unknown technology of the jab - say in 10, 15 or 20 years. Can you tell me?

Other friends have had terrible reactions and long term ones. Unexplained neuralgia, constant chronic fatigue, strange illnesses, strange rashes. Things that their GP can't explain. 2 friends can not work anymore because of crushing unexplained pain throughout their bodies.

Informed consent to have the jab means fully informed - knowing the full ins and outs of the jab, its side effects and long term consequences. No, we have not been fully told. They say it is safe. Um..... again... what will the effect, if any, be on our bodies in 10 or longer years from now. No, so again we are not getting fully informed.

Sadly the truth is out there but propaganda is being ingrained into us to think that we are being told the truth when it could in actual fact be lies. Why are whistle-blowers who speak the truth being slammed and blotted out from doing so - because truth hurts. Sadly the media hypes everything up too with scaremongering. Big pharma is everything these days, all about money. People being told lies that ivermectin is a horse medicine = but it actually was originally made for humans. Why is big pharma not looking at repurposing ivermectin as they have done for other drugs - because it is cheap.

Just read about a Mr Mr. Sun Ng, who was at deaths door, on life support in a hospital in the US. His daughter and physician did research and wanted to use ivermectin as the last resort. The hospital refused. The daughter took it to the court for an emergency hearing and ruling. Twice the court ordered the hospital to give the man ivermectin (bearing in mind his chances of living were next to nothing). By now the hospital was in contempt of court for refusing court orders. The 3rd time the judge ordered and said that the chap's physician had to be given access to the patient, no matter what, to give the chap ivermectin. What was the harm in trying if the guy's chances of living were virtually nil anyway, it was not going to do any harm if the guy was going to die. Needless to say, the chap started to get better and is now out of hospital. If you want the story, google or yahoo it: Dying COVID-19 Patient Recovers After Court Orders Hospital to Administer Ivermectin Mr Ng

I'm not advocating ivermectin but it's just an example of how big pharma blinds the minds of people.

I am sure some people who don't want the vaccine have looked at the bigger picture. They may respect your viewpoint but also respect theirs - more so if they are scared or have reasons as to why they are s*^t scared. Try to get into their heads and minds as to why. Probably you can't because you haven't walked in their shoes.

I am really trying to see both sides of the coin for those that choose the vaccine and those who choose not to. I am listening to those who have had it and those who haven't but I'm not judging those that haven't - because I've not walked in their shoes.

This world is a mess with so many people fighting and arguing. Best of friends or family members turning on each other just because of a b%*%y jab. It is really sad. We should be rallying around and supporting each other without bickering and arguing.

Ah well Susan it’s not possible to argue rationally or persuade when it belief.

That’s it really. ?

If humans have been dying from disease for thousands of years, without any vaccinations or interference, then it would seem, as you have just said, that the creator did indeed create perfection if only for the simple reason that the human race is still going, thousands of years later, after however many viruses and whatever else existed during that time. Our creator clearly got something right

No, we've just dodged a few bullets over millions of years.

We may not be so lucky next time.

There nothing as likely to get me on my hobby horse than someone pontificating about science and what it “should be”. I’m also struck by the people who say that things are being kept from us, while being able to dredge up the worst examples of poorly implemented science studies that are lurking out there in the furthest reaches of the web. And I include the bizarre UKColumn in that.

I’m afraid Susan55 unless you have qualification in medicine, epidemiology, public health or the like, all the googling you do doesn’t amount to research. It amounts to someone being exposed to the wild and un-validated ramblings of the misguided and the charlatans. And while you say you’re not an anti-vaxxer, casting doubt on the vaccines and how they have been developed and released to the world just does amount to being anti-vax. You’re not encouraging people to work things out for themselves. You’re casting aspersions on the thousands and thousands of real scientists, who know what science really is, who have developed, tested and implemented the scientific wonders that are the Covid vaccines.

How many coronaviruses are there Susan55? 200? Actually there’s 7. Might be good to work on those research skills.

Peasblossom

I don’t suppose the people who died or their relatives felt he’d got it right?

Peasblossom:

I want to answer your last post but felt a need to answer this one first:

My thoughts about this:
If you believe that people don't exist after death, then they would no longer have any kind of consciousness whatsoever so would apparently not even know they had died and therefore wouldn't have any thoughts at all on the matter.

If you believe that consciousness continues after death (which I do believe) then they would realise that it was 'their' time and happily go home, free of their physical body.

Relatives are a different story altogether because yes, they suffer. I know about that because I lost my dad in 2015, my brother in 2016, my sister in law two weeks later, my dog in 2018 and ten months ago lost my mum, for whom I am still grieving. Do I still think the creator got it right? YES! . It's very hard when people close to you die; very hard. But if there is one thing we all know for sure. Life is a terminal condition; none of us get out alive! We are all going to die. But this doesn't mean there is anything wrong with our immune systems. No-one, to this day, has been able to replicate life as we know it.

I know what you mean though

It would be like that horror film where an injected nanobot healed a man of cancer and then went on to modify his body so that he was indestructible. He grew gills and stuff.

Oh hold on, I think I’m going down the anti vax route ??

Peasblossom

I don’t suppose the people who died or their relatives felt he’d got it right?

It's an interesting question though - if humans had 'perfect' (whatever that actually means) immune systems what would that imply for the rest of the biomass?

Without any evidnce at all I'm swithering between 'none at all' (after all the vast majority of organisms - by number - are nematode worms) and 'it would throw the whole ecosystem out of balance'.

I don’t suppose the people who died or their relatives felt he’d got it right?