Sunak and his quiet trip to USA

Peasblossom

“were told he is meeting health providers”

Umm didn’t they actually say tech and business”.

That was the second message.

Gagajo, this person certainly wants the NHS but only in a vastly reformed condition from start to finish. I'd be interested to know from those who've used other Countries' services in either length of depth which they preferred and why, please. I have an American friend who can't wait to get home on her annual trip to get her medical check up. She thinks we're hopelessly incompetent here. As for me, I've had excellent help and some disasters but have never used other than NHS so have no comparisons.

I just keep my fingers crossed that we will follow the model of another country who is making it work successfully for them, and that we can keep ours.
With or without the GP surgeries as we (used to) know them if they are a “stand alone” business entity.
In these times no one is advised to keep a business running if it has not got incomings higher than outgoings.
I can only put forward a simple opinion as I am not a very knowledgeable person, but am interested in people’s posts who know more.

Sorry, baggs. I don't understand how the way the health care is financed affects outcomes. Can you explain.

Not easily. My comment is based on what my German friend says. She thinks having to pay up front for some (minor) things focusses people's minds so they don't pester health services with things they could deal with themselves. Given how often we are hearing pleas to Save the NHS from being overwhelmed we need something.

Baggs

^Sorry, baggs. I don't understand how the way the health care is financed affects outcomes. Can you explain.^

Not easily. My comment is based on what my German friend says. She thinks having to pay up front for some (minor) things focusses people's minds so they don't pester health services with things they could deal with themselves. Given how often we are hearing pleas to Save the NHS from being overwhelmed we need something.

I'm not sure that rationing care (even for minor things) by ability to pay is quite the way to go.

But then, I'm firmly of the view that the NHS is being overwhelmed at the moment because it has been kept short of funds.

And also by the quite abrupt loss of recruitment from the EU (which clearly was unforeseen on the part of the last two governments; Project Fear and all that...) without a real drive to train our own professional NHS staff to compensate. With better planning we might have been in a better position personnel wise. Figures given for current vacancies range from 98 to 100,000. Even the lower figure is crucial now.

The Tories are selling the NHS

We were warned

Perhaps it should be made clear that 'healthcare bosses' are heads of private medical enterprises. I don't think they'd be giving him advice on the treatment of covid...

Baggs

A German friend of mine who has lived and worked in the UK for a long time does not think the NHS compares favourably with the German system. One of her points is that not having to pay "up-front" via national insurance sometimes so that you're aware of the cost makes Brits think lazily about their health.

She also thinks our system is not joined up enough. We both have experience through work that this is so and often for the people who need the joined-upness the most. Whatever bureaucracy we have seems to put barriers in place rather than 'enablement'.

Re the US system, admittedly anecdotally via relations and friends there, the system is actually very good if you can afford good health insurance. That, I agree, is the stumbling block that most people are aware of.

Anyway, countries in Europe with systems more equivalent to ours (i.e. mostly free at the point of contact but financed more diversely) are probably worth looking at for ideas that might improve outcomes in the UK, in my view.

Totally agree. My family in Germany get much quicker care, results of scans and blood results,usually given to patient to take direct to GP, Consultant usually seen within a week.Surgery quicker, varicose veins stripped without having to jump through hoops to get them done, and yes they can be debilitating, can lead to massive ciculatory problems. State and paid for health insurance. Those that can’t pay get state help. So no one goes without. We will have to do something.

Kim19

Gagajo, this person certainly wants the NHS but only in a vastly reformed condition from start to finish. I'd be interested to know from those who've used other Countries' services in either length of depth which they preferred and why, please. I have an American friend who can't wait to get home on her annual trip to get her medical check up. She thinks we're hopelessly incompetent here. As for me, I've had excellent help and some disasters but have never used other than NHS so have no comparisons.

I've used the US system. Incredibly expensive. The Chinese. Basic but good. Pay at point of service but cheap. Swiss, with health insurance which costs more than a mortgage every month. And Spanish which was beyond fabulous.

I'm v lucky with my GP. I have a personal relationship with him because he cared for me through my cancer. But my DDs GP services is awful.

GagaJo

Kim19

Gagajo, this person certainly wants the NHS but only in a vastly reformed condition from start to finish. I'd be interested to know from those who've used other Countries' services in either length of depth which they preferred and why, please. I have an American friend who can't wait to get home on her annual trip to get her medical check up. She thinks we're hopelessly incompetent here. As for me, I've had excellent help and some disasters but have never used other than NHS so have no comparisons.

I've used the US system. Incredibly expensive. The Chinese. Basic but good. Pay at point of service but cheap. Swiss, with health insurance which costs more than a mortgage every month. And Spanish which was beyond fabulous.

I'm v lucky with my GP. I have a personal relationship with him because he cared for me through my cancer. But my DDs GP services is awful.

My son and DIL would concur with the Spanish system. They were so impressed.

And also by the quite abrupt loss of recruitment from the EU

It puzzles me that EU doctors, other than as temporary exchanges or sabbaticals, would want to work in the NHS if it is really so starved of funds as is often claimed.

Baggs

^And also by the quite abrupt loss of recruitment from the EU^

It puzzles me that EU doctors, other than as temporary exchanges or sabbaticals, would want to work in the NHS if it is really so starved of funds as is often claimed.

Oh Baggs how can you say that?

Ask every single clinician and they will tell you that they are desperately short of staff. This situation has been getting worse and worse since 2010.

They are more exhausted than I suspect every one onGN has ever been in their lives.

Thank you, I'm now about to research Spanish system as best I can on google. I always find it interesting that, although I've been taught (brainwashed?!!) that ours is the best in the world, I've not yet found a Country who has copied it. However, that may be my ignorance and not necessarily a fact.

Ask every single clinician and they will tell you that they are desperately short of staff. This situation has been getting worse and worse since 2010.

I wasn't thinking of the shortage of staff here; I was wondering what the attraction was for people from countries very similar to the UK as regards health facilities.

I fully sympathise with the effects of staffing shortages but that wasn't what I was talking about.

NHS privatisation now trending on Twitter.

NHS privatisation has been going on by stealth for years. First to go we’re the most profitable areas, and bit by bit it’s been sold off.
The rest has been underfunded/understaffed until the point when government can say it’s no longer working and a new system is needed. Enter USA and big business, hungry for profit.

I don’t know how anyone could forgive the Tories for doing this to our NHS.

There is an awful lot of denial on GN.

My family in Germany get much quicker care, results of scans and blood results,usually given to patient to take direct to GP, Consultant usually seen within a week.Surgery quicker, varicose veins stripped without having to jump through hoops to get them done, and yes they can be debilitating, can lead to massive ciculatory problems. State and paid for health insurance. Those that can’t pay get state help. So no one goes without. We will have to do something.

Does it not occur to people that we could enjoy deluxe services if the government were prepared to invest the money to pay for them?

According to OECD figures the UK is 14th in the world for total spending on health services (from whatever source of financing) at $5,267 per capita pa. The US is no. 1 at $10,948. And most of the health services being praised on this thread are well above the UK in spending per capita. Not surprising then that they can offer a better level of service (though the US is plainly an anomaly with lower life expectancy and many US citizens unable to afford the cost of health care).

The surprising anomaly is Spain, which spends only $3,630 per capita. Perhaps we should ask them how it's done

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Hint - the happiest countries are NOT those with the lowest taxes

The German system does not have the GP gatekeepers - you take a child with a problem to a paediatrician, if you have a gynaecological issue you would make an appointment to see a gynaecologist and so on, so quicker and more efficient. It’s crazy here that a hospital,consultant can’t refer you to a different speciality - you have to go back to your GP, and we all know how accessible GPs are, so maybe being able to refer yourself to a speciality would save a whole layer of admin. I agree paying a nominal amount for medical appointments would cut out some time wasters, there would still be exemptions for those on benefits.

Kim19

Gagajo, this person certainly wants the NHS but only in a vastly reformed condition from start to finish. I'd be interested to know from those who've used other Countries' services in either length of depth which they preferred and why, please. I have an American friend who can't wait to get home on her annual trip to get her medical check up. She thinks we're hopelessly incompetent here. As for me, I've had excellent help and some disasters but have never used other than NHS so have no comparisons.

I worked in Norway for 12 years.

Norway has a similar model to ours, but it is not entirely free - there are some upfront payments - for GP and specialist / consultant appointments.

Everyone pays National Insurance. The point at which treatment becomes 'free' is when you are hospitalised.

When I lived there, everyone paid around just under £10 for a GP appointment and anywhere between £15 and £27 for an appointment with a specialist or consultant.

However, these costs are capped per year. When I was there, the cap was around £100 including all payments. Once that sum is reached, you don't pay anything further. This is so that those with difficult complex health problems and the chronically sick are not penalised. Children under 16 and pregnant women are excluded from these costs.

The hospital I attended was a university teaching hospital, run to a high standard, and, I might add, excellent catering facilities.

The thing is - Norway is a high-wage economy. Which people forget when they talk about the high-tax people pay. Norwegians can afford these up front payments.

My partner and I retired back to the UK considerably wealthier than when we left - in spite of him paying 34% tax and me 27%!

MaizieD

^My family in Germany get much quicker care, results of scans and blood results,usually given to patient to take direct to GP, Consultant usually seen within a week.Surgery quicker, varicose veins stripped without having to jump through hoops to get them done, and yes they can be debilitating, can lead to massive ciculatory problems. State and paid for health insurance. Those that can’t pay get state help. So no one goes without. We will have to do something.^

Does it not occur to people that we could enjoy deluxe services if the government were prepared to invest the money to pay for them?

According to OECD figures the UK is 14th in the world for total spending on health services (from whatever source of financing) at $5,267 per capita pa. The US is no. 1 at $10,948. And most of the health services being praised on this thread are well above the UK in spending per capita. Not surprising then that they can offer a better level of service (though the US is plainly an anomaly with lower life expectancy and many US citizens unable to afford the cost of health care).

The surprising anomaly is Spain, which spends only $3,630 per capita. Perhaps we should ask them how it's done

A lot of Spanish have Private health insurance and use private hospitals. It can often be quite a journey to access a state funded hospital so those who can pay to have access to one that is close.

This means the demand for State funded health care is much lower than a country where the majority use the State funded system.

Also less is spent on nursing both in hospital and at home where the family is expected to carry out tasks like feedin, hygiene etc. Nursing is mostly medical care.

PS... Norway spends more per person on healthcare than any other country in the world.