Emmanuel Macron intends to ‘piss off’ the unvaccinated.

I am a leftie and I agree with it, not sure what that means .

GrannyGravy13

Alegrias1 good post @ 12.42, I agree.

Yes, I agree completely with that post too.
And no way am I a leftie radical either.?

And doctors cannot become doctors without having a yellow fever vaccine.

Are you sure about that Kali? When my daughter was training to be a doctor she was obliged to have the Hepatitis B vaccine, but I’m sure she didn’t need the Yellow Fever vaccine. She had to have the Hep B vaccine just before she did her first rotation in surgery during her training.

who said this anywhere.

Several people.

On this thread.

Alegrias ''Any of those people told to stay in their houses and not allowed out? Not go into public places? Not to go shopping for food and essentials? ''

who said this anywhere. Of course they can go out in public places in fresh air- but not indoors. And when going shopping for essentials, gel on entrance and masks strictly enforced.

The final %s may not be much different, but France was a lot lower before the pass sanitaire.

So the pass sanitaire isn't about protecting people from mixing with unvaccinated people but it is a way of forcing people to have a medical intervention before they can participate in society.

It may be one way that governments could use to increase vaccination take-up but its not one that I agree with. 79% of people in France are double vaxxed and 76% of people in the UK. UK far outstrips France on booster doses. I wouldn't say that is a runaway success for France, would you?

And of course, admissions to hospital and critical care are also very low in the UK compared with earlier waves.

Alegrias1 I don't think the pass sanitaire has stopped the spread of the virus. It has spread in schools, families, places of work etc., just like the UK.
What it has done and what it was intended to do, is to boost the number of vaccinations. The French were reluctant and the pass sanitaire was aimed at a hugely important part of French life; cafés, bars restaurants etc. It worked.
Admissions to hospital and critical care are very low compared with the first waves.

Alegrias1 good post @ 12.42, I agree.

In many countries? In many countries you're not allowed to do many things, that doesn't mean its right.

I am afraid this is not new. In many countries, children cannot start school without being MMR vaccinated. For good reasons. We all saw the surge in Measles after Wakefiel! And doctors cannot become doctors without having yeloow fever vaccine.

Any of those people told to stay in their houses and not allowed out? Not go into public places? Not to go shopping for food and essentials?

No. The answers no. We have to have limits Kali2 .

Yes I did. ''The chances of a non-vaccinated person spreading the virus may be higher, but I’m afraid we live with it. Convince them otherwise, because if we start segregating people on the grounds of their medical choices, where does it end? ''

I am afraid this is not new. In many countries, children cannot start school without being MMR vaccinated. For good reasons. We all saw the surge in Measles after Wakefiel! And doctors cannot become doctors without having yeloow fever vaccine.

And people are 'discriminated' all the time, if you want to put it that way- when there is a shortage of beds, organ donations, funds, staff or ventilators, etc- day in, day out.

As for cinemas, bars, restaurants, etc, they are surely not essential.

So? Did you read my (admittedly long and possibly rambling) post?

Sorry I made you scream Kali2! - not quite a scream, just a very guttural moan.

Agreed stopping people going into food shops is too much- but at least insist on gel and mask, no.

As for cinemas, bars, restaurants, etc, they are surely not essential.

But you made me nod Alegrias . Decisions made when people are frightened are often not good decisions. I would find this all quite fascinating to watch if it wasnt bloody terrifying.

I asked the question Why? hoping for an answer but of, course, didn’t get one.

First off – we all agree that people taking up ICU beds when they could avoid that by taking the vaccine is something we need to fix, and quickly. So how do we fix it?

Restricting the lives of people who haven’t had the vaccine? I’ve seen it suggested on here that they are prevented from going into crowded places, or even shops; that they should be made to stay at home until the pandemic is over. Well what about the children? They haven’t been vaccinated, do we stop them going places? Do we stop the medically exempt? Because if not, then proposing that we restrict the lives of those who have chosen not to be vaccinated is choosing to punish those who don’t think like you. You might think I’m a leftie radical but we don’t punish people in this country for declining medical interventions, we try to convince them otherwise. Its what makes us British. Maybe one of the things we should be proud of about being British instead of all the xenophobic rubbish that sometimes gets spouted on here about flags and countryside.

So, next. Stop people entering crowded places if they are unvaccinated. That’ll work! Well no, actually, it won’t. Hasn’t worked in France. Hasn’t worked in Austria. Hasn’t worked in… well any other country with rising rates and punitive measures for the unvaccinated. Just because we think something will work, that doesn’t mean it will. Evidence based intervention is what we need. Restrict people from crowded venues if they have tested positive; require a negative test.

People who choose not to be vaccinated are not the only ones spreading the virus; you are too, even if you are vaccinated up to the hilt and wear your mask and test daily. The chances of a non-vaccinated person spreading the virus may be higher, but I’m afraid we live with it. Convince them otherwise, because if we start segregating people on the grounds of their medical choices, where does it end? Really, where does it end? Standing next to an unvaccinated person won’t kill you. Standing next to a vaccinated person who has the virus, might.

It saddens me to see people advocating punitive measures – and yes, not allowing people to go into shops is a punitive measure – when that won’t even help the situation.

Sorry I made you scream Kali2!

Jonlin1234

In England we have banned smoking in public places, smokers have to smoke outside .their choice
l like to visit cafes ,theatres and pubs so l have my choice to breath in a smoke free atmosphere
I do not want to mix with people who by CHOICE refuse to vaccinate and risk spreading the virus to vulnerable family members therefor your choice to not vaccinate but please
don’t go to to public venues and take away my choice

Banning smoking is a little different you can guarantee there will be no smoke inside a premises
You cannot guarantee there will be no Covid transmission even if everyone is totally vacinnated.

In England we have banned smoking in public places, smokers have to smoke outside .their choice
l like to visit cafes ,theatres and pubs so l have my choice to breath in a smoke free atmosphere
I do not want to mix with people who by CHOICE refuse to vaccinate and risk spreading the virus to vulnerable family members therefor your choice to not vaccinate but please
don’t go to to public venues and take away my choice

*not (not 'now'!)

I think Macron wants to be seen to be doing something will it actually make a difference probably not
They already have stricter restrictions that we do but has it stopped the increase in cases
Short of locking a whole country down tight this virus is going to have to take its natural course and we as individuals are going to have to take our own measures as we see fit

Alegrias1 I am normally in complete agreement with your posts, but I have to take issue with this last one. I completely understand people's annoyance that hospital resources are being used by people who are not vaccinated; unless there is a good reason, IMO they are being antisocial and selfish. I wouldn't advocate punitive measures per se, but I am all in favour of making their lives restricted by now being able to go into shops, restaurants etc.

Alegrias1

^I think it's right that people cannot be allowed into potentially crowded venues etc. if they haven't been vaccinated.^

Why?

AAARRRRGGGGGHHHHHH

Sarnia

Alegrias1

Being in ICU is not the same as being in hospital.

People should get their information from trustworthy sources, don't you think?

The ward I worked on was next door to ICU and was most definitely in the hospital. Where do you think ICU's are based? Anyone being treated or dying from Covid in ICU's are counted in the figures.

This, exactly! One of our very good friends had to be rushed into ICU for a severe heart condition and was transferred to a specialist hospital a few hours later. He was under the knife, having a very serious operation, when the ICU phoned the other hospital to say they should cancel the operation as he might have contracted Covid in ICU. Too late, operation was well under way. He tested Positive for Covid for next day and had to be put in coma so he would not cough- etc- he took a whole year to recover, but will probably never be the same.

I think it's right that people cannot be allowed into potentially crowded venues etc. if they haven't been vaccinated.

Why?

Why ae we worrying about the language, I think it's right that people cannot be allowed into potentially crowded venues etc. if they haven't been vaccinated. It's their choice.
There are those who have said the vaccine hasn't been properly tested. This is clearly ludicrous when millions of us have had the vaccine and we haven't grown extra heads.

No sorry, Sarnia, I disagree with you, they are misleading figures.

If people post what they are seeing in their local wards, that gets picked up by people and used in a general way. We have seen it repeatedly on here, for instance when one consultant on the BBC said that there were 90% unvaccinated people in his ICU and then we had Grans saying that the hospitals were full of unvaccinated people.

And let's just say that in one hospital there are high numbers of unvaccinated people in one ICU. So what? If every other hospital is different to that, then that one ICU is not representative.

We are seeing the demonisation of the unvaccinated and that's not fair. Its also not safe. If people start to think that its the unvaccinated that are filling up our hospitals, we start to see the emergence of punitive measures for them. Misplaced punitive measure, IMO.

In the interest of disclosure, I'm triple vaxxed, as is everybody I know, I think, and I will happily take any vaccination that is necessary to get us out of this mess.