Emmanuel Macron intends to ‘piss off’ the unvaccinated.

I asked the question Why? hoping for an answer but of, course, didn’t get one.

First off – we all agree that people taking up ICU beds when they could avoid that by taking the vaccine is something we need to fix, and quickly. So how do we fix it?

Restricting the lives of people who haven’t had the vaccine? I’ve seen it suggested on here that they are prevented from going into crowded places, or even shops; that they should be made to stay at home until the pandemic is over. Well what about the children? They haven’t been vaccinated, do we stop them going places? Do we stop the medically exempt? Because if not, then proposing that we restrict the lives of those who have chosen not to be vaccinated is choosing to punish those who don’t think like you. You might think I’m a leftie radical but we don’t punish people in this country for declining medical interventions, we try to convince them otherwise. Its what makes us British. Maybe one of the things we should be proud of about being British instead of all the xenophobic rubbish that sometimes gets spouted on here about flags and countryside.

So, next. Stop people entering crowded places if they are unvaccinated. That’ll work! Well no, actually, it won’t. Hasn’t worked in France. Hasn’t worked in Austria. Hasn’t worked in… well any other country with rising rates and punitive measures for the unvaccinated. Just because we think something will work, that doesn’t mean it will. Evidence based intervention is what we need. Restrict people from crowded venues if they have tested positive; require a negative test.

People who choose not to be vaccinated are not the only ones spreading the virus; you are too, even if you are vaccinated up to the hilt and wear your mask and test daily. The chances of a non-vaccinated person spreading the virus may be higher, but I’m afraid we live with it. Convince them otherwise, because if we start segregating people on the grounds of their medical choices, where does it end? Really, where does it end? Standing next to an unvaccinated person won’t kill you. Standing next to a vaccinated person who has the virus, might.

It saddens me to see people advocating punitive measures – and yes, not allowing people to go into shops is a punitive measure – when that won’t even help the situation.

Sorry I made you scream Kali2!

But you made me nod Alegrias . Decisions made when people are frightened are often not good decisions. I would find this all quite fascinating to watch if it wasnt bloody terrifying.

Sorry I made you scream Kali2! - not quite a scream, just a very guttural moan.

Agreed stopping people going into food shops is too much- but at least insist on gel and mask, no.

As for cinemas, bars, restaurants, etc, they are surely not essential.

As for cinemas, bars, restaurants, etc, they are surely not essential.

So? Did you read my (admittedly long and possibly rambling) post?

Yes I did. ''The chances of a non-vaccinated person spreading the virus may be higher, but I’m afraid we live with it. Convince them otherwise, because if we start segregating people on the grounds of their medical choices, where does it end? ''

I am afraid this is not new. In many countries, children cannot start school without being MMR vaccinated. For good reasons. We all saw the surge in Measles after Wakefiel! And doctors cannot become doctors without having yeloow fever vaccine.

And people are 'discriminated' all the time, if you want to put it that way- when there is a shortage of beds, organ donations, funds, staff or ventilators, etc- day in, day out.

In many countries? In many countries you're not allowed to do many things, that doesn't mean its right.

I am afraid this is not new. In many countries, children cannot start school without being MMR vaccinated. For good reasons. We all saw the surge in Measles after Wakefiel! And doctors cannot become doctors without having yeloow fever vaccine.

Any of those people told to stay in their houses and not allowed out? Not go into public places? Not to go shopping for food and essentials?

No. The answers no. We have to have limits Kali2 .

Alegrias1 good post @ 12.42, I agree.

Alegrias1 I don't think the pass sanitaire has stopped the spread of the virus. It has spread in schools, families, places of work etc., just like the UK.
What it has done and what it was intended to do, is to boost the number of vaccinations. The French were reluctant and the pass sanitaire was aimed at a hugely important part of French life; cafés, bars restaurants etc. It worked.
Admissions to hospital and critical care are very low compared with the first waves.

So the pass sanitaire isn't about protecting people from mixing with unvaccinated people but it is a way of forcing people to have a medical intervention before they can participate in society.

It may be one way that governments could use to increase vaccination take-up but its not one that I agree with. 79% of people in France are double vaxxed and 76% of people in the UK. UK far outstrips France on booster doses. I wouldn't say that is a runaway success for France, would you?

And of course, admissions to hospital and critical care are also very low in the UK compared with earlier waves.

The final %s may not be much different, but France was a lot lower before the pass sanitaire.

Alegrias ''Any of those people told to stay in their houses and not allowed out? Not go into public places? Not to go shopping for food and essentials? ''

who said this anywhere. Of course they can go out in public places in fresh air- but not indoors. And when going shopping for essentials, gel on entrance and masks strictly enforced.

who said this anywhere.

Several people.

On this thread.

And doctors cannot become doctors without having a yellow fever vaccine.

Are you sure about that Kali? When my daughter was training to be a doctor she was obliged to have the Hepatitis B vaccine, but I’m sure she didn’t need the Yellow Fever vaccine. She had to have the Hep B vaccine just before she did her first rotation in surgery during her training.

GrannyGravy13

Alegrias1 good post @ 12.42, I agree.

Yes, I agree completely with that post too.
And no way am I a leftie radical either.?

I am a leftie and I agree with it, not sure what that means .

I think Yellow Fever is for African countries. I had to have it to visit South Africa decades ago.

maddyone

^And doctors cannot become doctors without having a yellow fever vaccine.^

Are you sure about that Kali? When my daughter was training to be a doctor she was obliged to have the Hepatitis B vaccine, but I’m sure she didn’t need the Yellow Fever vaccine. She had to have the Hep B vaccine just before she did her first rotation in surgery during her training.

Car lagged- yes, Hep B.

GrannyGravy13

Alegrias1 good post @ 12.42, I agree.

I agree too.

Evidence based intervention is what we need.

And so far we don't have anywhere near all the evidence.

You could stand next to someone in a queue, sit near them on a bus and they may seem perfectly healthy but could be carrying Covid, vaccinated or unvaccinated.

Someone could have recovered from Covid, be triple vaccinated, and catch Covid again.

Someone could be desperately ill with comorbidities, catch Covid but be symptomless.

Kali

Someone could have recovered from Covid, be triple vaccinated, and catch Covid again.

I know you’re right Calistemon but you’re describing me, and my reaction is oh my God, please just NO!

Oh, sorry, no, you will have built up a good immunity now, maddyone!

I was thinking of Keir Starmer, but he's ok, I think, apparently symptomless.
(Perhaps it was a false positive last time)

Calistemon, surely we're talking probabilities here?

You could stand next to someone in a queue, sit near them on a bus and they may seem perfectly healthy but could be carrying Covid, vaccinated or unvaccinated.

But surely they would be much more likely to be infectious if they are unvaccinated?

But surely they would be much more likely to be infectious if they are unvaccinated?

Sorry Cal, I'm here so I'll comment.

Got any stats on that humptydumpty? How much more likely it is? You happy to abandon all the freedoms that we have in this country because somebody standing next to you might be ill and might make you ill as well? When you are vaccinated and more likely to be immune and much more likely not to get a serious illness?

We really have lost the plot.

I don't know the statistics therefore the probabilities.

You could, of course, be late that morning and miss the bus.

That's not a joke btw.

And as far as I remember transmission rate is higher for those who received AZ than Pfizer so if its transmission rate that people are worried about (rather than people not doing what they want them to) we need to be looking at that too.