Two Years of Keir Starmer. What do we think?

It seems to me that point scoring about people, using hackneyed terms ('Westminster bubble' , it sounds like a Brexiteer motif...), is completely unproductive.

Here is a Labour offering on work, the economy, regional powers and more. Isn't that what we should be critiquing?

It sounds reasonable to me. (Though calling it a 'covenant' reminds me irresistibly of poor ED's 'written in stone')

labourlist.org/2022/01/who-and-what-does-labour-stand-for-labours-covenant-offers-an-answer/

trisher

I wonder why the only people who keep bringing Corbyn up are the Starmer supporters. I never mention him. I know he''s gone. It seems the only way the right can justify the absolute destruction Starmer has brought as leader is to say - "Well you want Corbyn back." I don't. I want a leader who will do as he promised and unite the party. I don't want a witch hunt that chucks out Jews who support Palestine, members of groups they don't like, outspoken local activists or forces others to resign because they find a complete lack of compromise from the right. I want a leader who doesn't throw money away, gathers support from working people and the Unions and acknowledges the independence of local parties. I don't want a right wing bigot who lies, deceives and gathers power to Westminster central.

I understand perfectly and agree with you trisher

And there are many others who don't like way KS is leading the party.

Now there are left wing parties starting up and these have all grouped together now it's called PAL an alternative socialist Party.

People need choice

Trisher
Surely most of the people on here who mention Corbyn are the Tories who regularly tell us that Johnson has done a good job during the pandemic and they dread to think what would have happened if JC was PM.

Kali2 I agree with you that the left of the LP will never win an election because, as you say, the world has moved on; times have changed.

I remember back in the eighties whilst on holiday in Italy we met an author who had just had a large advance for her second novel. We were discussing politics and she mentioned her father, a Nottinghamshire miner, who still held what today would be regarded as extremely left wing views.

The post was baby boomers had access to health and education unheard of before the war. All of us, not just those whose parents could to pay. Better health and education led many of us be able to have good careers and buy our own homes for example. The LP did not recognise those changes.

I sometimes think that some of the LP still don't recognise that and it's possibly the reason why those members who live in affluent areas, like Islington come under attack from members of Momentum. There are thousands of people in the country who still support Labour and do so because they want to see an improvement in living standards for everyone.

Did anyone see that documentary a few nights ago called The Decade when the Rich Got Richer (or something similar) It showed how after the bank bailout the loans weren't repaid (Tory govt) and the money found it's way into the pockets of the very rich who then moved it offshore At the same time Osborne was banging on about austerity and cutting the higher rate of tax at the same time as benefits were also being cut.

There are many more people living in poverty now than there were during the Blair/Brown years.

And the Tories are still at it. Not bothering to go after the Bounce Back Loan fraudsters but increasing NIC.

No Dinahmo sadly the people who mention Corbyn the most are those who claim to be "centre left" and support Starmer. It's supposed to be a way of dismissing those of us who see the faults with a leader who promised much and has delivered little. I don't think I'm living in the past. I think many of us on the left see the harm the Tories have done and then look at Starmer and can see little he proposes will undo that harm. So we want a definite statement from him about policies an end to targetting the left, and steps to unite the party. Things he consistently fails to do.

Corbyn delivered us. Tory party with an 80+ majority that are ripping apart democracy…..

Unite the party trisher it will never unite until some stop clinging to the days of coal mines, iron works, pigeon lofts,
Dai caps and working mens clubs.

adly the people who mention Corbyn the most are those who claim to be "centre left" and support Starmer.

Oh, FGS, trisher. You are making things up and being a tad insulting.

I liked Corbyn, I liked the LP manifestos and thought they could work. I voted Labour in the last 2 GEs. But I am not prepared to spend my time bickering with people who don't seem to care about the good of the country above internal party politics.

I don't think that Starmer is the monster you & Grany paint him to be, any more than Corbyn is the monster the media painted him to be, and, however imperfect his 'left wing' credentials might be I had much rather that he was PM than the utterly appalling apology for a human being we have in post now.

I, like Casdon am going to leave the building now because I think this debate is futile and utterly depressing.

MayBee70

Corbyn delivered us. Tory party with an 80+ majority that are ripping apart democracy…..

That's true but the reasons? Provided by the Tory MSM. I just can't get my head around why people voted for the "elite" that we have now. I know the answer - it's because "Boris is one of us" or "Boris will see us right" . The latter came from middle aged men, sharing a room away from home, working on zero hours contracts, in a Channel 4 interview. To put it mildly I was shocked.

Just watched part of Politics Live - the young Tory on there, I think from a Red Wall constituency did nothing but trot out the party line. He must have something in his head but I don't think there were many brains.

Yes it's a mystery Dinahmo why people didnt enjoy being called stupid.

This debate is indeed very depressing, especially for those of us who are desperate not to have another Tory government come the next General Election. While the Labour Party split themselves into factions, argue about who is more true to the cause, fail to recognise that most members are not, as Annibach eloquently put it clinging to the days of coal mines, iron works, pigeon lofts, Dai caps and working mens clubs, the Tory party clap their hands, spread more disinformation and scare tactics regarding 'the cost of covid19' and sit back smug in their majority. Starmer has been a disappointment to me, I keep waiting for him to show a spark, but, maybe he is playing a long game, and letting the smug liar currently in office, hang himself. It certainly looks like it.

Galaxy

Yes it's a mystery Dinahmo why people didnt enjoy being called stupid.

Only the Tory MP - no one else.

As far as I know no one on the left of this argument has mentioned any of those things Annie so quite where they came from I have no idea. We have commented that Starmer seems to be intent on getting rid of as many members of the LP as he possibly can. We have said that the policies we support are energy and water provided by not for profit companies, a decent transport system with the railways under public control, the NHS protected from privatisation and, a living wage, with zero hours contracts only being used when the worker want them. What that has to do with mines and working men's clubs I 'm not sure.

Corbyn didn’t need any help from the conservatives to lose Labour the last election. I, along with others, found him unacceptable. Starmer has to get his act together and say he’s definitely going to deliver his policies so far without blaming the current government for his inability to do so AND for me, he has to put in place a policy which respects the rights of females.

"clinging to the days of coal mines, iron works, pigeon lofts, Dai caps and working mens clubs,"
That's not actually true though is it, it is just an unpleasant remark.
Left wingers like myself just want to be sure that the NHS will remain in public hands, without more and more money being given to private providers.
Would like the welfare state to give us all a reasonable standard of living (which is good for the economy).
Would like an integrated public transport system (which is good for the environment)
If Keir Starmers party wants to gain as many votes as possible, it would be better if they tried to get left wing people on board, not just make nasty comments about us. (many of whom, like myself, actually voted for him as leader)

''Left wingers like myself just want to be sure that the NHS will remain in public hands, without more and more money being given to private providers.
Would like the welfare state to give us all a reasonable standard of living (which is good for the economy).
Would like an integrated public transport system (which is good for the environment)''

why is the above only for 'left wingers' - this is exactly what left of centre Labour voters want too. Which does not mean this is going to be achieved by wringing dry those who strive for success and bring in jobs and a sucessful economy, and taxes. Tackling tax evasion from the extremely rich and corporations is paramount for all.

I voted for Corbyn as leader 'as long as he could unite the party'.
Which I realise now is next to impossible.
I know we can never go back to the days that Annie describes. And wouldn't want to.
But we must try to create some kind of social ideal strong enough to oppose the right wing. but appropriate to these times.
Which is what Blair tried to do. But things have changed. and the old traditional Tories are still clingiing on.

When I spoke of coal mines, iron works etc, I was not speaking of those who are far left, I was speaking of ‘the voter’ , Labour
needs to win the votes across the country not just what were once safe Labour seats.

ps and that's why the Russians and the French resorted to Revolution {hmm). Which led to new problems.

Blair was the only Labour leader to win three consecutive general elections ,

Labours worse defeats have been with far left leaders

Anniebach

Blair was the only Labour leader to win three consecutive general elections ,

Labours worse defeats have been with far left leaders

Annie and i often disagree, sometimes strongly. This statement though is simply factual.
People may disagree with the description of ‘far left leaders’. I admired and liked Michael Foot. I still do.

To beat the tories, we do not need another Michael Foot, we need a leader who has wider appeal. I’m in a so called red wall seat. I’ve canvassed over the last 50 years- not consistently but enough to acknowledge Annie’s view

Is that leader with wide appeal Keir Starmer though?

I voted for him as the best candidate at the last leadership election
He’s doing ok

There isn’t going to be a new Labour leader before the next election. We cannot continue with the current government: one of the reasons why they’re letting Johnson hang on because he has no obvious successor. Whatever anyone thinks of Keir he is our only hope and he needs to be given that chance. Look at the team of people he has around him in the shadow cabinet. Surely even Conservative voters must feel that they’ve had too long in government and need a good shake up. When MP’s like Peter Bone are being interviewed on tv because none of the others are prepared to be interviewed you know there’s a problem with the party.

Keir Starmer made a huge mistake in not backing PR

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/sep/30/keir-starmer-proportional-representation-progressive-alliance

He should have backed the views of over 80% of his constituency parties to change our voting system to proportional representation and allow the UK to become a true democracy.