Legacy of the fraudulent referendum

I think what is not understood about our membership of the EU is that in our very economically and culturally divided nation, its benefits were not equally perceived.

This is a bit difficult to explain without getting into controversial territory. Let me put it this way. I live in a fairly wealthy town in The Cotswolds which has seen an increase in immigrants from Europe, but only to a limited degree. Culturally, the town has not changed much and what little change there has been is beneficial. But compare that to, for example, Boston in Lincolnshire, where a big percentage of the residents were born outside the UK and where the 'culture' of the place changed, it seems, virtually overnight. Does it matter? Well yes, I think it does. We are all a bit 'tribal' - as are the immigrants themselves - and that sense of 'belonging' to a community matters. As a Remainer, it still matters to me and I would not like to see the heritage of my town obliterated - even tho' I understand that we progress and the world evolves and changes constantly. And how well prepared are / were we for an immigration influx in terms of housing and infrastructure? Tony Blair, IMO, made a mistake in not taking the option given by the EU to stagger the number of immigrants arriving at any one time. His "let them all come" policy was wrong. The very reason that option was given by the EU was so that countries could prepare their infrastructure for increased numbers. We were not prepared and Blair must have known that - or should have.

But, here's the thing. Most of our nation's problems were not caused by EU membership, they were and are 'home-grown'... as Boris Johnson himself acknowledged back in 2013 when he penned an article on the future referendum in which he wrote:

“If we left the EU, we would end this sterile debate, and we would have to recognise that most of our problems are not caused by “Bwussels”, but by chronic British short-termism, inadequate management, sloth, low skills, a culture of easy gratification and underinvestment in both human and physical capital and infrastructure,”

What a shame he is now blaming the EU for all our shortcomings, eh? An act of political expediency.

The point of my post is to say that I, as a Remainer, understand why some voted to leave. I just think they blamed the wrong institution for most of our problems.

Urmstongran

So you are joyous about Biden? ?
And you voted Remain no wonder you felt upset.

That's really nasty Urmstongran

and eazybee's contribution just after shows how the level of political criticism in this country had decayed recently

Urmstongran

Some Good News:

Ministers are said to be negotiating to extend the successor of the EU Health Insurance Card to Australia, New Zealand and Israel.

Britain is in talks with Australia, New Zealand and Israel to give holidaymakers free healthcare when they are abroad as part of a post-Brexit scheme for travellers.

The Sunday Telegraph understands ministers are negotiating to extend the successor of the EU Health Insurance Card (EHIC) to a number of countries outside the bloc.

The talks, which are being spearheaded by Health Secretary Sajid Javid, are the first steps towards the Government’s ambition to give British travellers basic health protection across the globe.

Because we all frequently pop across to the other side of the globe for the weekend, don't we? What a stunningly useful thing this successor to the EHIC will be..

The point of my post is to say that I, as a Remainer, understand why some voted to leave. I just think they blamed the wrong institution for most of our problems.

Your analysis fails to explain why the NE, with one of the lowest %ages of immigrants in the UK, voted predominantly Leave (though highly diverse, multicultural Newcastle voted Remain).

I think it had a great deal to do with sticking one on the tories...

MaizieD

^We will reap the benefits yet of that I totally believe.^

Some of us have very short memories, Ug (It's called having 'senior moments').

Do remind us of the benefits which you claim you told us about.

And since 5 years ago, things have changed massively no?
What are the benefits we have so far reaped from Brexit?

MaizieD

Urmstongran

Some Good News:

Ministers are said to be negotiating to extend the successor of the EU Health Insurance Card to Australia, New Zealand and Israel.

Britain is in talks with Australia, New Zealand and Israel to give holidaymakers free healthcare when they are abroad as part of a post-Brexit scheme for travellers.

The Sunday Telegraph understands ministers are negotiating to extend the successor of the EU Health Insurance Card (EHIC) to a number of countries outside the bloc.

The talks, which are being spearheaded by Health Secretary Sajid Javid, are the first steps towards the Government’s ambition to give British travellers basic health protection across the globe.

Because we all frequently pop across to the other side of the globe for the weekend, don't we? What a stunningly useful thing this successor to the EHIC will be..

Only one country so far has been able to sign a reciprocal agreement on healthcare- Switzerland, where EHIC(now GHIC is valid, unlike in the EU.

Chatting with my SIL, was saying there are loads of good jobs around. He has just moved jobs into a bigger salary, as alsp has my DS. Lack of labour is bad news for businesses but good news for workers as businesses have to pay more, often just a decent wage. We're short on UK HGV drivers as they're pay and conditions were s**t. Funny, it seems the working man (Labour voter) and young people are reaping benefits from BREXIT yet it's the older generation and Tories voted for it!

MaizieD
On the program outlining how the rich got richer after the 2008 crash ( as if we didn’t know) this subject was brought up towards the end of the program.
Millions of people, particularly in poorer areas wanted to give the Tory’s a kicking.

Dickens
Very good post.

Kali2

MaizieD

Urmstongran

Some Good News:

Ministers are said to be negotiating to extend the successor of the EU Health Insurance Card to Australia, New Zealand and Israel.

Britain is in talks with Australia, New Zealand and Israel to give holidaymakers free healthcare when they are abroad as part of a post-Brexit scheme for travellers.

The Sunday Telegraph understands ministers are negotiating to extend the successor of the EU Health Insurance Card (EHIC) to a number of countries outside the bloc.

The talks, which are being spearheaded by Health Secretary Sajid Javid, are the first steps towards the Government’s ambition to give British travellers basic health protection across the globe.

Because we all frequently pop across to the other side of the globe for the weekend, don't we? What a stunningly useful thing this successor to the EHIC will be..

Only one country so far has been able to sign a reciprocal agreement on healthcare- Switzerland, where EHIC(now GHIC is valid, unlike in the EU.

Yet you can bet your EHIC that no visiting EU citizen will be denied health care in the U.K., No insurance or credit cards asked for on your hospital trolley. We should really change tack on this. Good for the goose etc.

Dickens I voted leave, I think your post is a very accurate description of the situation in 2016.

MerylStreep

MaizieD
On the program outlining how the rich got richer after the 2008 crash ( as if we didn’t know) this subject was brought up towards the end of the program.
Millions of people, particularly in poorer areas wanted to give the Tory’s a kicking.

Dickens
Very good post.

If people wanted to give the Tories a good kicking, how come so many of them voted Tory in 2019 to "Get Brexit Done"?

UMG's post was alluding to healthcare in NZ, OZ and Israel, for UK ctizens. At the moment, Switzerland is the only European country with such an agreement.

I thought we'd always had reciprocal healthcare agreements with Australia and New Zealand? I know nothing about arrangements with Israel.

Although we have always taken out insurance, so far we haven't had to use it for emergency treatment in Australia.

MaizieD

I think it had a great deal to do with sticking one on the tories...

They 'stuck' one on the Tories in the referendum. Then voted for them in the subsequent election.

Lincolnshire voters were the most Eurosceptic in the UK. Boston is an extreme example which I used to demonstrate a point, about tribalism.

It wasn't an 'analysis' of Brexit-voters en masse, just one aspect of it. Free movement most certainly played a part in many Leaver's decisions, even though some had little experience of immigration.

Ladyleftfieldlover* You certainly weren't alone in feeling that way about the events of 2016.

Dickens
I also think you have summed up the situation very well, as it was pre referendum.
I voted remain.

Alegrias1

MerylStreep

MaizieD
On the program outlining how the rich got richer after the 2008 crash ( as if we didn’t know) this subject was brought up towards the end of the program.
Millions of people, particularly in poorer areas wanted to give the Tory’s a kicking.

Dickens
Very good post.

If people wanted to give the Tories a good kicking, how come so many of them voted Tory in 2019 to "Get Brexit Done"?

Aaah, different tories, Alegrias,

(And it wasn't a majority of those who voted, as you know)

I think that a very significant number of voters think that voting for a different leader of the same party will make a radical difference to what the party does when in power. Not really realising that a leopard never changes its spots. Leaders may come and go but the over all ethos of the party remains the same.

Culturally, the town has not changed much and what little change there has been is beneficial. But compare that to, for example, Boston in Lincolnshire, where a big percentage of the residents were born outside the UK and where the 'culture' of the place changed, it seems, virtually overnight. Does it matter? Well yes, I think it does. We are all a bit 'tribal' - as are the immigrants themselves - and that sense of 'belonging' to a community matters

It's quite ironic when you think that for some 200 years we (Britain) rampaged around the globe imposing our culture on a great many countries and using their resources to make our country wealthy...

I think that a very significant number of voters think that voting for a different leader of the same party will make a radical difference to what the party does when in power. Not really realising that a leopard never changes its spots. Leaders may come and go but the over all ethos of the party remains the same.

In a way MaizieD, I'd like to see Johnson replaced and hear all the people that will go on about how they voted for Johnson but now they've got Gove/Sunak/Tugendhat/whoever. Just so that I can remind them that they didn't vote for Johnson and that's another way they've been deceived.

MaizieD

^Culturally, the town has not changed much and what little change there has been is beneficial. But compare that to, for example, Boston in Lincolnshire, where a big percentage of the residents were born outside the UK and where the 'culture' of the place changed, it seems, virtually overnight^. Does it matter? Well yes, I think it does. We are all a bit 'tribal' - as are the immigrants themselves - and that sense of 'belonging' to a community matters

It's quite ironic when you think that for some 200 years we (Britain) rampaged around the globe imposing our culture on a great many countries and using their resources to make our country wealthy...

Can you imagine how some Spanish and other coastal holiday resorts feel? English shops everywhere, English Cafés and restaurants, hardly anyone who speaks Spanish? Same in parts of France like Dordogneshire! And many Cities all over Europe and elsewhere, where large expat communities live parrallel lives, their own schools, own Churches and clubs, never learn the local language, or take part in the local community. Anglos-Saxon expats have always been the worst at not learning the local language and just shout louder to anyone who has the gall not to understand them!

There’s lots of barrel scraping going on when anyone talks about the “benefits” of Brexit , I liked the story of the Tory MP who trod in a pile of human excrement when he went to view the 17 mile queue of lorries outside Dover the other day. It sort of sums up Brexit. As for higher wages - tell that to social care and health workers, teachers…….and look at the cost of living crisis that wipes out higher wages at a stroke.

Can you imagine how some Spanish and other coastal holiday resorts feel? English shops everywhere, English Cafés and restaurants, hardly anyone who speaks Spanish?

A somewhat biased view there MaizieD as tourism accounts for 12% of GDP on the Costas. Many visitors (like ourselves) go out to enjoy the sunshine and spend our pensions in said cafe bars and restaurants. We don’t want their jobs! We take private health insurance so our health needs are covered!

Loads of Spanish cafe bar owners are bemoaning the loss of tourism. They were looking out for us all last Easter, hoping for golfing parties, holidaymakers and long stay pensionistas.
We are as a group VERY WELCOME.

Sorry to spoil your narrative but don’t let the truth get in your way of a good rant!

I've been to Spain many, many times. Never been on the Costas. Supported a little bar in Jerez where nobody spoke English. Amongst other places [sink]

My tourism money is as good as yours and I actually spend time and money in Spain, not the English speaking enclaves.

Hasta luego.

MaizieD

Urmstongran

Some Good News:

Ministers are said to be negotiating to extend the successor of the EU Health Insurance Card to Australia, New Zealand and Israel.

Britain is in talks with Australia, New Zealand and Israel to give holidaymakers free healthcare when they are abroad as part of a post-Brexit scheme for travellers.

The Sunday Telegraph understands ministers are negotiating to extend the successor of the EU Health Insurance Card (EHIC) to a number of countries outside the bloc.

The talks, which are being spearheaded by Health Secretary Sajid Javid, are the first steps towards the Government’s ambition to give British travellers basic health protection across the globe.

Because we all frequently pop across to the other side of the globe for the weekend, don't we? What a stunningly useful thing this successor to the EHIC will be..

Oh well, hooray!! I am sorry I have doubted you all this time *Urm, if I had only known that throwing away all the benefits of being in the EU would mean that I could save around £200 in travel insurance EVERY TIME I TRAVEL TO AUSTRALIA OR ISRAEL, I would have voted to leave too.

Lots of EU citizens who came here to WORK weren’t taking jobs as the vacancies show plus many of us welcomed them into our communities (not all of us as the vote showed).