Legacy of the fraudulent referendum

GrannyGravy13

Alegrias1

But that's exactly the attitude. They all wanna speak English, don't they?

Imagine, oh I don't know... say you had a holiday home in a foreign country that you visited several times a year. Your knowledge of the local language is so patchy that when the waiter hears what you speaking, s/he immediately switches into English because they know you're struggling.

I'd be embarrassed. But maybe its just me...(and everybody I know)

My family lived in mainland Europe, in a country which was not part of the EU for over ten years, we spoke the language, worked with locals and immigrants from multiple Countries and my sibling attended school there.

Does it really annoy you that English is spoken worldwide?

You misrepresent me GG13, but I think you know that.

I lived in France for several years, and learned to speak French. I've spent a lot of time in Spain and can hold a reasonable conversation in Spanish, although my written Spanish is bad. I've visited Turkey twice and can speak no Turkish at all. Likewise Mandarin, Italian, Dutch and Swedish, amongst other languages.

My point is, that if you are spending an extended amount of time in a country, I believe that it is good manners to learn to converse in the language of that country and not to assume that anyone you meet will be delighted to practice their English on you.

Kali2

Why is it 'annoying' when other nationalities speak their language among each other in the UK? AND learn and speak the local language too.

No issue with English being spoken worldwide- not at all. It is very useful for all. But there is a limit- when Anglo-Saxon expats DEMAND that everyone speaks English, from the shop-keeper, to the plumber, doctor, police or ... anyone, then it grates. And it changes the local culture. This was mentionned because someone mentionned how some towns in the UK have seen their local culture change due to groups of foreigners (Boston was mentionned). At least most East Europeans in the UK speak English and learn fast- unlike ...

When you have communities where all the shops, cafés, restaurants, Churches, clubs and schools, etc- speak a different language, it can affect the local community. And no less so when it is Anglo-Saxons elsewhere, be it in Spain, Cyprus, etc, or posh ski resorts, and low taxation towns in Switzerland.

Doesn’t annoy me Kali2 I would never DEMAND anyone to converse in English, if it’s their choice I would not DENY them the opportunity to practise English or any other language either.

Not all ex-pats live in same nationality enclaves, whether they be English, Scandinavian, Asian etc, I respect others the right to chose to if they so wish.

It’s good to be open minded and not tar all with a sweeping brush.

I had no intention of misinterpreting you Alegrias1

If that is how my post appeared to you, I apologise.

When I lived in France I had a "language buddy" and we met up twice a week, an hour of French and an hour of English. So we could both learn.

I never thought I was being generous to the lady in the baker's if I couldn't work out how to ask for a "religieuse" and had to break into English to do it.

Sorry, GG13, cross post. I appreciate your comment.

We are the only Brits in our village in Normandy and none live anywhere near as far as I know. Our friends are French and although I know a few English people, our experience is that most have long since gone back.
I do think it is right to speak the language of the country you live in, but I wouldn't want to condemn or patronise people who find it hard. You wouldn't be able to manage here without speaking French and certainly wouldn't find doctors, dentists etc.
I keep trying to retire, but I am still teaching English fifteen years after official retirement, the demand locally is constant.
My son has been teaching English in inland Spain for over 25 years. His language school still has very high demand.

Alegrias1

But that's exactly the attitude. They all wanna speak English, don't they?

Imagine, oh I don't know... say you had a holiday home in a foreign country that you visited several times a year. Your knowledge of the local language is so patchy that when the waiter hears what you speaking, s/he immediately switches into English because they know you're struggling.

I'd be embarrassed. But maybe its just me...(and everybody I know)

That is so true, Alegrias.

I have to smile at your description of the waitors who switch into English immediately when an English person is trying to speak Spanish.
My late dad tried his best to learn enough Spanish to get by on his annual holidays, but unfortunately never got beyond the stage where that happened in bars and restaurants. Either the waiters were trying to be helpful, they were expected by their boss to use their English, or they were rushed off their feet and simply didn't have the time to wait for him to make himself clear.
That said, he found staff in the hotels were generally happy to let him use what Spanish he had, and he seemed to build up a good rapport with a them. They encouraged his efforts and made him happy.

I, on the other hand, speak a couple of foreign languages quite well, and Spanish is one of them. Because of that, I know just how much it annoys a lot of Spanish people, including shop owners and staff in tourist areas, that so many English people, even those who have property there and live most of the year there, make little or no attempt to learn their language.
When they have realized that I am fairly fluent, they have been very quick to open up to me on that topic.

A member of our extended family falls into the 'they need our money and who cares if we don't speak Spanish to them, they like to speak English' catagory.
He spends more of the year in Spain than he does in England, yet despite having property there for over forty years now, only knows half a dozen Spanish words at the most. He is also someone who thinks that the ability to speak fluent English should be mandatory for anyone expecting to live here in the UK.
I find it very hard to bite my tongue in his company, the word hypocrite being the one that is hard to keep back.

And being called an expat drives me bonkers; we are migrants. Expats are traditionally temporarily in another country to work for a company before returning home. Grrr....

English Language schools in the UK have been hit hard by Covid and now by Brexit - French, German and Italian students are more frequently going to language schools in Dublin for English tuition - its cheaper, they accept ID cards and no mucking around with visa etc.

Completely off topic anecdote...

I used to travel back and forward to France on Brittany Ferries. I would speak to the staff in the restaurant in French, as many of the travellers could. But they only started treating me as a "proper" French resident when I ordered the cheese before the dessert

Alegrias1 I am laughing at the idea of asking the person in the patisserie for a squidgy nun. ?

A close relative of mine lives in a Italy and teaches English there . He speaks at least 5 languages fluently, even the local dialect of the region. He organised Erasmus exchanges which are no more, he even had to send back some British uni students in the middle of their course as the U.K. government stopped the funding mid course.

Alegrias1

Completely off topic anecdote...

I used to travel back and forward to France on Brittany Ferries. I would speak to the staff in the restaurant in French, as many of the travellers could. But they only started treating me as a "proper" French resident when I ordered the cheese before the dessert

If you, comme moi, have eaten at Le Gavroche, Mere or Murano in London, you are given a menu carte with English translations under the French or Italian name of the dishes. The waiter politely hovers while you order in your chosen language and then continues to propose other dishes in the same language. Class!

Alegrias1

GrannyGravy13

Alegrias1

But that's exactly the attitude. They all wanna speak English, don't they?

Imagine, oh I don't know... say you had a holiday home in a foreign country that you visited several times a year. Your knowledge of the local language is so patchy that when the waiter hears what you speaking, s/he immediately switches into English because they know you're struggling.

I'd be embarrassed. But maybe its just me...(and everybody I know)

My family lived in mainland Europe, in a country which was not part of the EU for over ten years, we spoke the language, worked with locals and immigrants from multiple Countries and my sibling attended school there.

Does it really annoy you that English is spoken worldwide?

You misrepresent me GG13, but I think you know that.

I lived in France for several years, and learned to speak French. I've spent a lot of time in Spain and can hold a reasonable conversation in Spanish, although my written Spanish is bad. I've visited Turkey twice and can speak no Turkish at all. Likewise Mandarin, Italian, Dutch and Swedish, amongst other languages.

My point is, that if you are spending an extended amount of time in a country, I believe that it is good manners to learn to converse in the language of that country and not to assume that anyone you meet will be delighted to practice their English on you.

I guess I'm biased, but being able to speak a foreign language is more than being able to order in a restaurant or other simple tourist transactions. Understanding and speaking another language opens minds to different thought systems through, for example, literature, films, media and jokes. It's not really possible to understand different philosophies without understanding the nuances of the language. Being able to "think" in another language enables people to stand outside parochialism.

Sadly it's true that in some parts of the UK the immigrant population do not all speak English, let alone attempt. I used to work with a Pakistani lawyer who moved with some of his family to the UK when he was a child. He grew up and was educated at Uni here and also trained here. His family lived in Bradford and he spoke with that accent. If you didn't see him but heard him speak you would think he was English. In his thirties, he decided to marry a girl from Pakistan. This was to honour his father. That is something I just don't get. She had lived in Pakistan all her life and I think had had a little schooling in English.

His mother, sister SILs and his wife did speak English at all.

I'm sure that this situation has been repeated many times. His friends with whom he was at school and college were all professionals and they had all married women from their home countries and they spoke little English.

His colleagues asked him whether we would get to meet his wife day and the answer was no, she wouldn't even meet the
Pakistani wives of his friends.

Culturally we are so different to our Asian immigrants that sometimes it is difficult to see how they will ever truly assimilate. A very small example - my friend's wife needed some shoes and a cardigan and so he took her shopping. She asked what she should chose - he said whatever you like. She was unused to be able to make a choice. Can you imagine a young British woman doing that? She wasn't asking for confirmation but was asking what she could have.

Sadly the last time I saw him he had left his wife and was fearful as to what her brothers would do.

I hope I am not coming over as a racist, which I'm not but I can understand why some English are unhappy especially as sometimes there are no attempts to integrate.

Alegrias1

Completely off topic anecdote...

I used to travel back and forward to France on Brittany Ferries. I would speak to the staff in the restaurant in French, as many of the travellers could. But they only started treating me as a "proper" French resident when I ordered the cheese before the dessert

I never reached that stage in France, as I was only there as a (mature) student, but I do remember once being caught out by rail strikes, having to abandon a train à mi-chemin and take a taxi to complete my journey to the airport, and spend 30 minutes answering the driver's questions about why we Brits seemed so anti-EU (1996)! I actually felt quite chuffed about the way that conversation went

But we are not talking about understanding the language in depth here. More about manners, politesse, etiquette which doesn't require a lot of effort from anyone.

I went to school for several months in France in the early 70s and was given the best desk in the class and sat at the top of the dining table. Often the teachers would ask me questions, genuinely interested, about my country, my language etc. When my penfriend came to my school in London she was shoved at the back of the class and made to feel a nuisance, no one was interested. She went back home after 2 weeks.
Sadly, there is a very British attitude that if something is of no use to us, then often we don't make an effort.

That reminds me of a French child on a school visit to London. His host family were strict muslims ( he wasn't) and he had to eat in a separate room and not with the family. Told to me by the GM

Oh dear!

Urmstongran

Apologies to MaizieD.
Thank you Kali2. I got muddled.

I’m back.

Maizie D ... I’d already apologised 2 hours before you urged me to read the posts properly!

I am just stunned that someone who has a home in Spain thought it was a good idea to leave the EU. Very odd. We have friends who have a home in a EU country, voted to leave, and now that the implications have hit, as they get older, seriously regret their vote

We only have a holiday home in Spain. Gill57. We don’t live there! Maybe your friends actually do?

So, for us, not ‘odd’ at all. ?
We voted - thinking of our family’s future in the UK.

^ guess I'm biased, but being able to speak a foreign language is more than being able to order in a restaurant or other simple tourist transactions^

Well bully for you growstuff.
Maybe I’m just thick and uneducated. But I have tried.
Truly.
Maybe I’m just rubbish with no ear for languages.

Doesn’t make me less of a (nice) person.

Josieann

But we are not talking about understanding the language in depth here. More about manners, politesse, etiquette which doesn't require a lot of effort from anyone.

Totally agree Josieann ?
Civility costs nothing.

I agree Urmstongran . However one voted, whatever the result, we weren't going to have to hand over our holiday homes. That was what I was trying to explain about nothing changing regarding property ownership. There were so many scare stories at the time.