Val McDermid, Raith Rovers and the Rapist

If you donate money to an organisation (and Val McDermid has donated money to Raith Rovers for a long time) why is it OK for her to donate that money and only withdraw it when the club signs a convicted rapist? Hasn't she by donating bought into the culture that produced these young men? It's nothing to do with if anyone is a woman or not. If you support the culture, if you fund the culture, if you actively promote the culture, if you are male or female is irrelevant, you have supported rape and violence. I'd say exactly the same thing to anyone investing in football. These"rotten apples" don't come from nowhere. If you teach boys from a young age they are special, if you encourage aggression and confrontation in them, if you educate them to never show weakness but always to win, if you then pay them huge amounts of money they can use to purchase alcohol and drugs, you are breeding young men with problems. All investors be they male or female should be asking that their money is used to help with this. But they won't, because agressive players win matches and make more money and the fall out from their actions off the pitch can sometimes be bought off if enough money is thrown at it. So shouting and screaming about Goodwillie and blaming me because I realise that actually it is a culture which isn't going to change without someone attatching conditions to the money they invest does absolutely nothing. Quite how realising investment needs to be conditional is asking women "what are you going to do about this" I don't know. It's pointing out that football is a business that exploits children and produces damaged men and it is time it did something about it.

Trisher, I kind of see some of what you mean. Yet we have decent male footballers like Denis Law and Kenny Dalglish who were good players but are decent people. I really don't know what the answer is but you are correct in that the clubs need to be tackling many issues. I think too many footballers are treated like gods and that leads to problems. Also, the fact that some become famous very quickly and at such a young age, can also lead to issues. Calum Best did a really excellent programme some years ago for Children in Need, joined by his mum. They talk about George Best and the issues they had as a family. It really gives an insight. If you do a Youtube search, you can find it.

I used to donate to some high profile charities, I stopped because of the abuse carried out by their male staff. My strong suspicion is there was a really unpleasant culture within those charities, with regards to viewing women in poverty in a certain way. I dont hold responsibility for that culture because I donated money.

And I am not sure we can start making assumptions about what football does to men without some solid evidence with regards to that. I suspect that it is a societal problem that needs addressing at a societal level. If you look at some of the issues in the Met for example, and that may be a similar type of culture, male dominated profession, 'toughness' etc. You have to unpick the whole culture of male violence across society.

So shouting and screaming about Goodwillie and blaming me because I realise that actually it is a culture which isn't going to change without someone attatching conditions to the money they invest does absolutely nothing. Quite how realising investment needs to be conditional is asking women "what are you going to do about this" I don't know. It's pointing out that football is a business that exploits children and produces damaged men and it is time it did something about it.

No, trisher. For one thing, we weren't 'shouting and screaming', and for another, you said that you would have been happier with Val Mc Dermid if she had insisted any support she gave should be used to develop programmes that not only deal with men already convicted of rape or assault but build in safeguards to prevent this happening over and over again.

As Chewbacca and others point out, it is not the role of women to sort out men's issues. Plenty of men, including my husband, son, son-in-law and male friends, respect women - these problems are not universal, and women have enough problems of our own without being expected to donate to programmes that help men not to rape. In any case, the sort of men and boys who think it's ok to treat women in this way are not likely to listen to us when we tell them to play nicely and behave, are they?

IMO it is up to men to teach their sons by example, and to teachers to teach more formally, that this behaviour is not acceptable at any stage of the continuum, whether it is sexist 'jokes', pornographic images, coercive sexual behaviour, violence or rape. If that education fails, then organisations of any type should reinforce it by banning those who persist in offending, and ultimately the law (and law enforcers) should step in and stamp it out.

The case went to civil court in 2016. It was in November 2017 that his high court appeal failed, but he'd signed for Clyde in March 2017.

If you don't understand how these clubs recruit, how young some of the boys are- 9 is the accepted age, that the club becomes the central influence in the boy's life then you won't understand the culture. The mental health and welfare of these boys is sadly neglected. Those who succeed have problems that manifest themselves in some ways, those who fail have other problems inclusing suicide attempts. Only the first grade of football academies have a dedicated member of staff looking after the boys mental health, grade 2 have a part time person, the rest have no-one.
There is still the perception that I am somehow asking women to do this. I'm not. I'm asking those who make the money who run the clubs regardless of sex to step up and provide the necessary care.
There is some interesting research in America here, linking agression in sport with agression in life wp.nyu.edu/steinhardt-appsych_opus/effects-of-participation-in-sports-on-mens-aggressive-and-violent-behaviors/
I think personal anecdotes are fine but they are just that and don't address the particular problem of footballers.

Some footballers recruited at 9 do very well. Many of The class of 92, MUFC did ok. The Neville brothers, Beckham etc still involved in charitable work locally.
The current crop include Marcus Rashford who credits the club and his mum with changing his life for the good. He’s a great role model, does wonderful work in his community.
Yes, there’s a problem with addiction, gambling, domestic abuse - there is some great work ongoing on those issues. That’s where the work should be, in the clubs. Val McD made a good stand, used her fame to draw attention. The women’s team supported - women influenced, over to the clubs, including the women to say enough of violence towards women

Iam64

Some footballers recruited at 9 do very well. Many of The class of 92, MUFC did ok. The Neville brothers, Beckham etc still involved in charitable work locally.
The current crop include Marcus Rashford who credits the club and his mum with changing his life for the good. He’s a great role model, does wonderful work in his community.
Yes, there’s a problem with addiction, gambling, domestic abuse - there is some great work ongoing on those issues. That’s where the work should be, in the clubs. Val McD made a good stand, used her fame to draw attention. The women’s team supported - women influenced, over to the clubs, including the women to say enough of violence towards women

So does the fact that some do well justify the clubs not properly supporting all the boys? By the time the boys are signed to the clubs they have been in an agressive, confrontational, macho culture for 7 years. I can't imagine any other situation where children wouldn't be entitled to proper support.
Of course it's great that women speak out but don't imagine that is going to stop it happening. The best clubs provide the best support but others do very little.

Of course the fact some do well doesn’t justify some clubs not properly supporting all the boys (and girls). Aggressive, macho confrontational culture? You really don’t like football do you

There is nothing wrong with asking those who make the money and run the clubs to do more; but that is not at all the same as expecting Val McDermid or any other donor to insist that money they are giving out of their own pockets has to go to rehabilitation schemes or schemes to keep boys and men on the straight and narrow, and it is this expectation which is being objected to.

It's nothing to do with liking or disliking football. The same characteristics appear in many sports, but football is a money spinner and it targets children. This impacts on boys and the men they become. From the link I gave

The masculine social norms imposed upon men and boys in organized sports contribute to a culture of violence, both within the sport and in other contexts (Boeringer, 1999; Brewer & Howarth, 2012; Fine, 1987; Steinfeldt et al., 2012). Research shows that men who participate in sports are more likely to conform to traditional norms of masculinity (Gage, 2008). An aggressive, win-at-all-costs mentality is enforced in sports teams, thus establishing standards of manhood to which the athletes must adhere (Steinfeldt et al., 2012). In other words, the positive regard toward aggression in organized sports, as well as the strong adherence to masculine social norms, breeds a culture of violence. Boys are also taught to take risks and compete aggressively, which assists in establishing violence and aggression as requirements of masculinity (Coulomb-Cabagno & Rascle, 2006)
The evidence has been gathered over many years.

Doodledog

There is nothing wrong with asking those who make the money and run the clubs to do more; but that is not at all the same as expecting Val McDermid or any other donor to insist that money they are giving out of their own pockets has to go to rehabilitation schemes or schemes to keep boys and men on the straight and narrow, and it is this expectation which is being objected to.

It's not rehabilitation! It's education, it's developing emotional intelligence, it's protecting boys from the harm that constantly expecting them to demonstrate agression and to win can do to them.

You keep changing your mind. What you said (on Wed 02-Feb-22 15:11:08) was that you would think more of V McD if she put her money into develop[ing] systems and support that not only deal with men already convicted of rape or assault but build in safe guards to prevent this happening over and over again.

I've been watching live football for 50 years. I've also taught lads who've been attached to football clubs while under 16.
There are players who are aggressive, they are players who are not aggressive at all.. Just like the club managers, just like some of the men I've worked with.
Younger kids are taken by their parents to training a few evenings a week.
Around 15, they are in school most of the time, but may have a day a week at the club, travelling alone/in groups.
Lastly the last few decades, many aspects of the world of work have become aggressive, driven by results - maybe it's football reflecting society.

Good comment Chardy. I dont dispute there are down sides but let’s not forget how much pleasure and fitness football brings

Chardy

I've been watching live football for 50 years. I've also taught lads who've been attached to football clubs while under 16.
There are players who are aggressive, they are players who are not aggressive at all.. Just like the club managers, just like some of the men I've worked with.
Younger kids are taken by their parents to training a few evenings a week.
Around 15, they are in school most of the time, but may have a day a week at the club, travelling alone/in groups.
Lastly the last few decades, many aspects of the world of work have become aggressive, driven by results - maybe it's football reflecting society.

Chardy Thanks for your experiences I think the problem is that football itself-once the beautiful game- has become a commercial enterprise where money is the main driver. To feed this need it recruits young boys into football academies and promises them much but delivers little. The subsequent bad outcomes it ignores. www.businessinsider.com/michael-calvin-shocking-statistic-why-children-football-academies-will-never-succeed-soccer-sport-2017-6?r=US&IR=T