Keir Starmer rescued by police

Politics is a dirty game. I wish there were courtesy and integrity, it’s getting worse. Shameful behaviour of those people. I am tired of gangs of people in big groups ignoring law and order for anything they feel indignant about, intimidating and bullying behaviour, wasting police time. They should receive heavy fines for public disorder. Second office, double fine and community service.

Casdon

I understand where you’re coming from GrannyGravy13. Both the main parties have elements who are seemingly unable to behave professionally, and do things which tarnish the reputation of all politicians in the eyes of the public.

But McDonnell has never been PM. FWIW I could never have voted for a Labour Party with him as a minister, but I just don't see that what he said is relevant.

You’ve missed the point I think growstuff. This isn’t about an individual, it’s a general point about the behaviour of politicians. There are MPs who behave appropriately and professionally, and others who don’t from all parties.

Casdon

You’ve missed the point I think growstuff. This isn’t about an individual, it’s a general point about the behaviour of politicians. There are MPs who behave appropriately and professionally, and others who don’t from all parties.

I haven't missed the point at all.

It isn't a general point about politicians in general - that's my point, which you don't seem to understand.

This is about the behaviour of Johnson, who has quite deliberately incited extremists and then is able to shrug his shoulders and claim "it's not me guv".

Yes, it is about him. He's the Prime Minister. There are no excuses or mitigations. He lied and smeared somebody. It doesn't matter how many other politicians or behave irresponsibly. He is responsible for what he says and does - and that's all there it is to it. No amount of childish tit-for-tat argument changes that.

You did I’m afraid growstuff. The point GrannyGravy13 had made was a general point about the behaviour of politicians. It followed on from the previous point. You weren’t hearing what she was saying. I don’t disagree with your comments about Johnson as you will know from my previous posts on this thread, but the conversation had moved on to a further point.

Lucca

Urmstongran. I can’t have been the only one watching it live on tv and noticed how Starmer ‘went pink’ when the camera panned to him. I think he was technically embarrassed because the jibe hit home. KS has a legal (some like the word forensic) mind. If Boris was wrong, why did KS not stand up and shout ‘SLANDER!’ at him?

He went pink ….he’s guilty? Probably in shock at the appalling accusation which had no relevance.

Why did he not stand up and shout ? He has some dignity,

Really barrel and scraping come to mind.

Starmer did not stand up and shout Slander because the wily Johnson knew he was safe in the House of Commons.
I doubt it was an off-the-cuff remark.

Parliamentary Privilege: A Common Pitfall

The importance of free speech in an MPs’ constitutional role is recognised and he or she is granted a special immunity. The Defamation Act 1996 provides that an MP is protected from legal liability for “words spoken or things done in the course of, or for the purposes of or incidental to, any proceedings in Parliament.

Some people do tend to go red in the face when they are angry and trying to contain themselves.

^The above does not alter the fact that U.K. politics has become toxic, ALL parties need to take a hard look at how they present themselves and the language they use. If none of you can see this, well I give up^…

Yes, I see it GrannyGravy

Some of the language used is only fit for the gutter.
The bar has been lowered so far it's a wonder some still manage to crawl under it.

More evidence, if any is needed, of Johnson's devious and shameless character.

And every time Johnson and his cronies behave in this disreputable way someone always pops up to say all political parties and governments are the same. I disagree - there have been so many scandals with this government and I can't recall any other government that has been so mired in scandals The trouble is, because of their regularity, for some people it becomes almost normalised to view politics in this way.

And every time Johnson and his cronies behave in this disreputable way someone always pops up to say all political parties and governments are the same
In that particular instance we were discussing gutter language and defamatory remarks.

Callistemon21

^The above does not alter the fact that U.K. politics has become toxic, ALL parties need to take a hard look at how they present themselves and the language they use. If none of you can see this, well I give up^…

Yes, I see it GrannyGravy

Some of the language used is only fit for the gutter.
The bar has been lowered so far it's a wonder some still manage to crawl under it.

And still you don't get it!

I give up too!

Eloethan

More evidence, if any is needed, of Johnson's devious and shameless character.

And every time Johnson and his cronies behave in this disreputable way someone always pops up to say all political parties and governments are the same. I disagree - there have been so many scandals with this government and I can't recall any other government that has been so mired in scandals The trouble is, because of their regularity, for some people it becomes almost normalised to view politics in this way.

I agree with you. That really is the point - it's become normalised and people don't see they are part of it.

I agree, too.

And still you don't get it!

It's you who is not getting it. Casdon explained why.

We get the other issue about standards of behaviour too.

Callistemon21

^And every time Johnson and his cronies behave in this disreputable way someone always pops up to say all political parties and governments are the same^
In that particular instance we were discussing gutter language and defamatory remarks.

Some evidence of all this gutter language and defamatory remarks by MPs would be helpful. With perhaps, an indication of the frequency with which it has been happening. Because I'm not altogether sure that it's true that it has become significantly worse in the past few years.

So far we have 2 high profile recent examples and 1 less high profile from some time ago. Any more on offer?

Johnson has contributed language to those morons who abused Starmer and he should apologise and resign. The Tory party is tainted by this disgusting excuse for a Prime Minister and Tory MPs had better get rid of him or they will face the music at the next General Election.

Callistemon21

^And still you don't get it!^

It's you who is not getting it. Casdon explained why.

We get the other issue about standards of behaviour too.

We will have to agree to differ.

As far as I'm concerned, any reference to what John McDonnell said was irrelevant. I am quite capable of reading what was written and I disagree. At best, it was a distraction and an attempt at mitigation for something very serious. It's not that I "don't get it".

Callistemon21

^And still you don't get it!^

It's you who is not getting it. Casdon explained why.

We get the other issue about standards of behaviour too.

I don't agree with Casdon's explanation. I do get it.

Grantanow

Johnson has contributed language to those morons who abused Starmer and he should apologise and resign. The Tory party is tainted by this disgusting excuse for a Prime Minister and Tory MPs had better get rid of him or they will face the music at the next General Election.

The thought of having to go through this until the next GE fills me with dread.
The country will be on fire if we have to wait until then to get some sort of leadership and integrity

I agree that corruption and lies are now so commonplace that we have grown to expect them. But I disagree that this is mainly in the past few years with Johnson. The word sleaze, in a political sense, was around 40 or so years ago when all kinds of depraved people with big egos were turning politics into a circus.

I agree that there have always been individual corrupt politicians and sleaze. What seems to have gone is the disappearance of the underlying principles of Ministerial Responsibility and resignation for wrongdoing.
The problem with the current government is that people are not sacked, nor do they resign. This laissez-faire, "let's just ignore it and get away with it as long as we can" attitude is very worrying.
Previous politicians at least took responsibilities seriously and had a work ethic even if you disagreed with what they were doing; I don't think this shower do.

If you google politicians (both local and national) to see how many have been charged with criminal offences over the years it makes an interesting read.

I remember a couple of years ago Mr. Rees Mogg having to be surrounded by police for his protection when walking from the House of Commons with his young son. There have been Labour politicians needing a police escort at their own party conference (under Mr. Corbyn if my memory serves me right) Angela Rayner referring to Conservative MPs a Tory scum

Sadiq Khan has said on GMB this morning that the streets of London are not safe for any politicians and that he himself goes everywhere with five armed protection officers.

The words that are used in The House, and the confrontational body language which since cameras were installed is there for all to see, is on many occasions questionable.

I personally do not know what the answer is however, simply replacing the PM would be a start along the road.

That's a very good point Mamie. I often wonder whether this lot were just inherently corrupt from the outset and got themselves into politics so as to practise this very behaviour, or did politics make them so? What I'm wondering is whether politics worldwide is generally attracting a different type of politician with dubious values.

GrannyGravy13

If you google politicians (both local and national) to see how many have been charged with criminal offences over the years it makes an interesting read.

I remember a couple of years ago Mr. Rees Mogg having to be surrounded by police for his protection when walking from the House of Commons with his young son. There have been Labour politicians needing a police escort at their own party conference (under Mr. Corbyn if my memory serves me right) Angela Rayner referring to Conservative MPs a Tory scum

Sadiq Khan has said on GMB this morning that the streets of London are not safe for any politicians and that he himself goes everywhere with five armed protection officers.

The words that are used in The House, and the confrontational body language which since cameras were installed is there for all to see, is on many occasions questionable.

I personally do not know what the answer is however, simply replacing the PM would be a start along the road.

All this has nothing to do with the question I asked at 23.58 yesterday evening. Generalities are not evidence and I would have thought it was pretty obvious that I was excluding Johnson's and Rayner's comments, so no good giving her as an example.

I would absolutely agree that the last few years have seen a big change in the public at large, with so much anger and outright hatred being expressed on social media and on the streets at some demos.

But I can't see that MPs are getting any better or worse than they have always been. Which is what has been claimed.

I thought the remark about confrontational body language was amusing. That's performance art for PMQs. If you watch an ordinary debate with half a dozen MPs on either side of the House you get an entirely different impression...

And don't forget that our political system is deliberately adversarial in its tone, not consensual.

MaizieD in my opinion with the 24 hour rolling news, along with MP’s having a high presence on social media platforms have a lot to do with the publics perseption of politicians.

As for my comments regarding confrontational body language in the house I am perfectly aware that this happens more so at PMQ’s , budget and other high profile debates as opposed to the half a dozen MPs who show up on a wet Tuesday for a debate that will only be seen on the Parliament Channel as opposed to be shown on News Broadcasts.

I also wonder if multiple TV channels and media sources have fragmented shared understanding and debate. When a large proportion of the population watched the same programmes - Panorama, World in Action etc, there tended to be discussion about the issues of the day. Not sure that is so true anymore.