Opportunity for hiding the bad news

In Scotland, there is an expectation that all secondary school teachers will teach literacy and numeracy as part of their subject and be competent to do so. It is mentioned in SGCS standards for teaching and probationers are assessed on their capabilities. I was seconded to support teachers with this when Curriculum for excellence first landed. Many subject specialists were unnecessarily worried about it.

I think that I am largely in agreement with you growstuff
But I’m still thinking of my friend who has a PhD in Astro physics and is high up at the Met Office.
He had an Autistic Spectrum Condition.
I genuinely am not sure if he would get Level 4 GCSE.
And if he was to achieve it easily, some amount of 1-1 tuition or LSA involvement would be required

Has ASC, not had
I’m still all over the shop again

Do people seriously think that somebody who can't achieve the levels of an average 11 year old should be doing a degree course?

You are conflating not passing the exam at 16 with not being able to achieve the levels of an 11 year old, though. I see no reason why someone who is perfectly capable of taking a degree in, say, Graphic Design, Geography or Music should need to take a GCSE in Maths or English before being allowed to take out a loan. If they have all the other requisite qualifications or have been accepted on the basis of a portfolio or interview, why put another obstacle in front of them?

I don't know which 'people' you are asking, but Theo Paphitis and Benjamin Zephaniah both agree with me that it is an unnecessary obstacle, and the CEOs of both the British Dyslexia Association and the Helen Ariel Dyslexia Charity have spoken against the measures too.

I suppose it depends on how inclusive or exclusive people think that access to education should be. I have often been quite shocked at how many people on GN (as opposed to other sites I frequent, and conversations I have offline) appear to want people to be barred from getting degrees. I don't know if that's because more Gransnetters are of an age where having a degree made them more 'special' than it does now, and resent the fact that these days it is not seen as evidence of genius, but simply recognised as proof that someone has had access to the opportunity to learn critical thinking, research skills and so on as well as gain knowledge of the subject matter of their choice of course.

I welcome any move to make that access open to as many people as possible, and hate the idea that something that a person did or didn't do at 16 is going to be used against them by barring the way to those who can't afford to access HE without a loan. I assume that doing it this way is just a means of bypassing university admissions policies, as without a loan a lot of people who have been accepted will not be able to go.

maddyone

I don’t have a problem with students paying back their loans. If the time has been extended to ensure this that’s fine. My three all made it a priority to pay their loans back as soon as they left university.

If ever there was a case of I'm alright Jack, then this is it. You may not have noticed that people across the board are struggling to survive at the moment, let alone pay back student loans. The cost of living has and still is, rising particularly energy and food. So those already on a low income will not only have to make their salaries go further they will now have the extra worry of paying more on their student loans. As Martin Lewis points out, this will hit low earners the hardest, such as nurses for instance: "Currently student loans are repaid until they are cleared, or for up to 30 years after university. Under the new system, 30 years becomes 40 years. Only around a quarter of current leavers are predicted to earn enough to repay in full now. Extending this period means the majority of lower and mid-earners will keep paying for many more years, increasing their costs by £1,000s. Yet the highest earners who would clear within the current 30 years won't be impacted."

I know, I agree and a lot people with money I know have had the money to pay for their children's university costs anyway

Yes, people who have been used to paying school fees often find that the cost of degrees is a welcome relief.

The difference in opportunity afforded to those who rely on loans to give them the chance of an education and that of those who get given cars or whatever bought out of the difference between the cost of fees for school and those for university is stark. It's not just the car, or the free rent, or the lovely holidays abroad between terms - it's the fact that they don't need to work every hour to make ends meet, they can relax after classes and so on, and can afford the books, IT and materials to make studying easier.

The very idea that there is support for the idea that loans should be denied to people for (what seem to me to be) arbitrary reasons is shocking. It has to underpin either an elitist attitude or a woeful lack of understanding of how many people live their lives. Someone with dyslexia or who struggles with maths is already at a disadvantage. Why pile on more?

we have supported ours to learn to drive and have provided a very cheap but well maintained car to share when at home but that is luxury these days. It costs an absolute fortune but we saw it as another skill they could use for work if things didn't work at out university (or wherever) of course we have never told them that they feel they are hard done by! I don't believe everyone has the opportunity to learn to drive either at £60 a lesson

Crikey we are paying £26 per lesson, is that because I am oop north.

we had to pay for 2 hour lessons but yes, it is £60 a weekend you can't bloody get anyone to do them as they are so booked up I have always taken mine out every day in between lessons but it was always hellraising

£60 for 2 hours once a week I meant

Oh you are kinder than me just one hour for mine. I have quite bad spacial awareness I have realised, I do a lot of increasingly franctic 'watch the post, watch the post, watch the post', and he will miss it by miles.

I have always had to have a huge glass of wine on returning home for 'lessons' and even now they have passed I try to not watch the road when we go out as I feel like saying watch the post, watch the post, slow down etc x

Doodledog

Yes, people who have been used to paying school fees often find that the cost of degrees is a welcome relief.

The difference in opportunity afforded to those who rely on loans to give them the chance of an education and that of those who get given cars or whatever bought out of the difference between the cost of fees for school and those for university is stark. It's not just the car, or the free rent, or the lovely holidays abroad between terms - it's the fact that they don't need to work every hour to make ends meet, they can relax after classes and so on, and can afford the books, IT and materials to make studying easier.

The very idea that there is support for the idea that loans should be denied to people for (what seem to me to be) arbitrary reasons is shocking. It has to underpin either an elitist attitude or a woeful lack of understanding of how many people live their lives. Someone with dyslexia or who struggles with maths is already at a disadvantage. Why pile on more?

Is a degree the right route for somebody who struggles academically? What does it say about the value of degrees if anybody can do them?

FWIW I think everybody should be eligible for some kind of career development loan to do a suitable course, but I can't be persuaded that a degree is appropriate for somebody who can't achieve Grade 4 in Maths and English, especially given the opportunities to resit.

Doodledog Somebody who can't achieve a Grade 4 in Maths and English wouldn't be able to cope with a geography degree, which requires a high level of literacy and and ability to handle data.

FannyCornforth

I think that I am largely in agreement with you growstuff
But I’m still thinking of my friend who has a PhD in Astro physics and is high up at the Met Office.
He had an Autistic Spectrum Condition.
I genuinely am not sure if he would get Level 4 GCSE.
And if he was to achieve it easily, some amount of 1-1 tuition or LSA involvement would be required

Many people on the autistic spectrum are high academic achievers and do extremely well at GCSE.

Is a degree the right route for somebody who struggles academically? What does it say about the value of degrees if anybody can do them?

Someone without qualifications in Maths or English might not struggle academically, though, which is what I am saying. There is more to academic ability than can be measured at the age of 16 by a GCSE. Note that the rules will not prevent people from taking course, but from accessing loans, which is a purely political decision.

I repeat, I have not struggled academically, but I don't have a Maths O level.

I knew as I posted that you or someone would come back with a comment about geography needing an understanding of stats, but AFAIK that is not covered in Maths GCSE, is it?

As for 'what is the point of degrees?' that is a whole different debate, but a partial answer is that they show that holders have a high level of understanding of the subject matter, as well as research skills, time management ability and the ability to make a case for a point of view.

What would you say to Professor Benjamin Zephaniah, who heads up a whole department at Birmingham, and whose books are on the GCSE English syllabus, or to entrepreneur Theo Paphitis, who says that "to discriminate against giving a loan, which is to be repaid, and to potentially harm the future of a student with special needs, such as dyslexia, in this present world, is beyond the imagination of anyone with any knowledge of education and skills for the future.”

growstuff
‘Morning! Re your post at 23.51

Yes, I know that people with ASC can be academic high achievers.

That was sort of my point.

The man I mentioned (who I was in a relationship with; so I knew him well) was studying for a PhD in Astro physics when we’re both at university together.

My main point is although he was extremely able in some areas (science and maths) he wasn’t any good at all at English.

Therefore he probably wouldn’t have even been able to do a BSc under the new rules.

That's the crux of it, Fanny.

Denying those who can't afford to pay fees loans, on the grounds that their abilities, or opportunities, or life stories have left them without a very low-level qualification in something they don't want to study is short-sighted and discriminatory.

Doodledog he was actually homeless before he went to University because his mom kicked him out as a direct result of his ASC.
So going to university totally transformed his life.

Yes, education transforms the lives of so many people - arguably more so for those whose lives have followed 'non-traditional' routes to it, and are less likely than others to have a more usual pattern of qualifications.

Not everyone follows the 'stay at school until 18, then go straight on to university' pattern, and nor should they have to, IMO. This is a rich country, and so long as people are continuing to meet the demands of courses (eg by passing regular subject-specific exams or coursework requirements whilst at university) I think that everyone should get the chance to go as far as they can in the system. If an O level in Maths or English is a necessary requirement, those without them would fall at the first hurdle anyway. I can't believe that putting obstacles in the way of entry is anything other than political.

There is nothing wrong with making it a condition of entry that GCSE English and maths must be at a certain level. After all universities are buildings that can only accommodate a certain number of students and if the applications keep on increasing because schools won't entertain anything other than a degree. To them college courses, apprenticeships, interns are the lesser option. Why, I don't know as there are plenty of rubbish degrees that lead to nowhere apart from serving behind a bar on very low wages.

I hope this doesn’t apply to fine arts, design or music degrees. The UK earns many billions of pounds from these industries and the graduates of the courses may well not have GCSEs in English and Maths. The usual short sighted idiocy from not just this government, thinking that only STEM subjects lead to wealth and innovation. Rubbish.

There has been plenty of coverage about this, I have read all about it on 2 different stories and Martin Lewis had a whole programme on ITV about it so hardly hidden and why shouldn’t they pay it back?
Ukraine is a tad more important

I did s teaching degree in the 70s without GCE maths but did a course whilst at uni that showed my understanding of the subject was at a high enough level. I enjoyed teaching maths, amongst all the other subjects at primary, and got good results. Assessments of my skills at teaching maths were graded as outstanding. I put this down to an understanding of the difficulties children might experience with the subject and a more sensitive approach in dealing with them- not something that was generally apparent when I was at school.