Opportunity for hiding the bad news

So many young people attend university now don’t they that it wouldn’t be realistic for the government to make it free, so loans are the only way to fund it for most students, and obviously they have to be paid back at some point.
Having always had to fund colleges, US families try to save for the kids education from birth but paying is relatively new for us.
I do think paid apprenticeships are the way to go if you can nowadays. My young relative has got an apprenticeship with a big company which pays a fab salary and pays for her degree too. She’s very clever and got top marks in her exams but felt paying to go to uni wasn’t worth the huge loans in her case, obviously depends what you want to do.

My opinion only, I’m sure some will not agree, but mainly courses shouldn’t even have to be paid for from “loans”, we need teachers, lawyers, midwives, doctors, nurses, and business people in our economy, my view is that if you are completing a course which leads directly to an associated job role then we should have grants back, both for fees and for maintenance ! The current system is unfair, my husband and I both work and are very average but still neither daughter nor son qualified for the full maintenance loan and both had “full on courses” (law and teaching), they both struggled to fit part time jobs round their courses and as a primary school teacher my daughter started work on £25,000 per year with £27,000 fees debt, £12,000 maintenance debt and £4,000 bank overdraft. She studied in Brighton, as this has one of the better teaching courses, didn’t even get into halls in her first year and the maintenance loan didn’t even cover her rent !!!!

growstuff

Doodledog Somebody who can't achieve a Grade 4 in Maths and English wouldn't be able to cope with a geography degree, which requires a high level of literacy and and ability to handle data.

Normally, I would agree with you, but DS didn't get what was considered the acceptable pass in GCSE Maths.

His offer at Newcastle for a Geography Bsc was conditional on his retaking it and getting the required level.

He didn't - by that, I mean he didn't even bother to re-sit it!

However, with two 'A's, and 'B' amongst his A levels, they waived that requirement. He went on to get a First Class degree, followed about five years later by the equivalent grade of Msc.

He did have to do some serious maths study during his Masters though. Many parts of the course required the ability to do quite complex calculations, and there was a specific maths exam part way through the course that absolutely had to be passed. If he'd failed it, he would have been thrown off the course. He found it extremely difficult, but luckily a friend (now one of our lovely our dils) coached him hard and he got through it.

The rest, as they say, is history, and he is doing a job that he loves, that combines playing in rivers with dealing with budgets and seeking/arranging funding to finance environmental projects.

You would have been very lucky to have got onto a good apprenticeship in the last few years. Lots were closed because of the pandemic.

As for all of covid, then Afghanistan and now Russia, yes this has taken the “heat” off Brexit and lots of new legislation is literally being “sneaked” through !! For example the new policing bill !!!

Well said - doodledog and Jennifereccles. When I was at school - many years ago!! - 5 of us at age 13yrs, had absolutely no interest in Maths at all. We were all capable of the basics but going any further was to see 2/3 years of boredom and very little learning. We were all quite academic- one went on to be a Fellow at Girton College Cambridge- we all went on to professional jobs - law, medicine, business and teaching. We went to the Head and explained that we would like to ditch Maths and do Greek instead. Much to our delight she agreed - I was then doing 4 languages at school plus of course English. Languages were a strength and interest for me and out of school, I studied Italian and Russian. In English, the ablest groups only took GCE English Language - we did not do English Literature GCE -because the head of English thought that studying books and plays for an exam would ruin our love of reading independently. I believe this was quite enlightened and right. We read all sorts of literature which we loved, but were not examined on it. There were no restrictions then like the National Curriculum- just a curriculum suited to the abilities of the children -
I also agree that some children are so much more suited to doing apprenticeships than doing a university degree which may lead an expensive nowhere- each to their own talents - A degree can be a meaningless waste of time and money.

I am not against students having to pay back their loans, why should they get a "free" higher education? My eldest daughter went to Uni and my son started uni in September, we understand the repayment system and have fully accepted it.

I don't agree with restricting funding unless certain exams are passed though, if the student is happy to take on the loan, it should be available to all.

Martin Lewis is also very keen to stress that a student loan is seen as a tax not a loan/debt as such - yes, it is taken into consideration when assessing mortgage affordability (as it should) but should not be seen as being "in debt" as this creates very negative connotations that are not really justified.

The thing I don't agree with is the assessment of maintenance loans depending upon parents income. It costs the same to put a "child" through university, regardless of a parents income and I resent being told that, because I have a higher income regardless of my other outgoings, I can afford to pay more money to get my child through university and therefore receive a lower maintenance loan.

The tuition fees, costs of accommodation and all other costs are exactly the same, and as the student loan is repaid by the student not the parents, I don't see how my income has any impact on this.

I agree with you, Cossy, but would go further, as unless we are to become a nation of barbarians we also need poets, playwrights, artists and so on, so I would support free education for all. I wouldn't tie free education to the hope of getting an associated job - it should be available to all, IMO.

The vast majority of people pay tax and NI after graduating (I could possibly be persuaded to support some sort of clawback from those who deliberately don't contribute, but their numbers are probably too small to be worth chasing), and as graduates tend to earn more, they pay more tax anyway.

When we went to Uni, it was a very different experience. People came out having had a rich academic experience having had decent debates during lectures, in the refectory, etc. However, today's experience appears to be very different and hinges around the social side. Entrants of 2019 onwards have had a very different experience and I would not say that it has enriched the students lives in a way they couldn't have got without going to University.
Most people are paying the huge loans throughout their lives for 11-12 hours of teaching per week by lecturers from all over the world; some of my son's lecturers cannot be understood because of their strong accents. When he submits work, there is very little feedback. One of the students I know got 4 hours teaching per week. Add in the cost of living in housing which is often, crowded sub-standard and expensive which can be fun. Personally, I feel they are being robbed.
My son is fully funded loan wise and with an additional bursary as we are low income. It is the students whose parents have to pay for their children to go to Uni when they are actually not far off above the threshold who I feel sorry for. Their parents still have control of them and they are often poorer than the students on low income who qualify for bursaries. Neither the parents or the students get it easy this way.
As to the necessity of a Maths or English GCSE (or equivalent) people with discalcula or dyslexia can be given help to pass these. It might be a scribe, extra time, a pc or other measures but, once again, the system needs overhauling. This is more difficult to get in some schools than others. This needs to be levelled so all children with those problems get the same chances. For degrees without a real need for maths, it seems like overkill. A better system would be to ensure that students can manage their finances mathematically using the tools that are out there so they don't struggle with living which would affect their studies.
I have always felt that a small percentage of extra taxation would be the way forward for those going to University rather than loans if you aren't going to make it free education. That way, the rich would pay too and the lower earners would pay less. This should be something they pay no matter where they are in the world. If the USA can tax when you are out of the country, so should we!

Education should be free if you are born here. Non brits it’s fine for them to pay.
Scotland has a great system and it works.
Science, Maths and English, these students should be paid to study. When starting their studies it should be contracted they work in UK for 5 years post studies.

montymops

Well said - doodledog and Jennifereccles. When I was at school - many years ago!! - 5 of us at age 13yrs, had absolutely no interest in Maths at all. We were all capable of the basics but going any further was to see 2/3 years of boredom and very little learning. We were all quite academic- one went on to be a Fellow at Girton College Cambridge- we all went on to professional jobs - law, medicine, business and teaching. We went to the Head and explained that we would like to ditch Maths and do Greek instead. Much to our delight she agreed - I was then doing 4 languages at school plus of course English. Languages were a strength and interest for me and out of school, I studied Italian and Russian. In English, the ablest groups only took GCE English Language - we did not do English Literature GCE -because the head of English thought that studying books and plays for an exam would ruin our love of reading independently. I believe this was quite enlightened and right. We read all sorts of literature which we loved, but were not examined on it. There were no restrictions then like the National Curriculum- just a curriculum suited to the abilities of the children -
I also agree that some children are so much more suited to doing apprenticeships than doing a university degree which may lead an expensive nowhere- each to their own talents - A degree can be a meaningless waste of time and money.

How did somebody without basic Maths manage in business? Sorry, but Grade 4 Maths is not that demanding and I think anybody with a degree should have basic competency in Maths. These days, you would not have been able to opt out.

BTW How come young people in countries such as France and Germany manage to do Maths and their native language until they're 18 (and have to pass to be awarded the final exam) when those in the UK can't? I don't believe that the French and Germans are innately more numerate?

Incidentally, (sorry this sounds boastful) but I did four foreign languages at school plus Maths and English Literature.

Oldnproud He obviously slipped through the administrative net, but (as you said) he needed to do some serious Maths for his MSc. I would have thought it's essential for geography, given the amount of data involved.

growstuff you were very fortunate to be ‘allowed’ to do four foreign languages
When I was at school you could only do one - either French or German
And you had to chose between History and Geography too

I am in favour of free education open to all, but only for core traditional subjects. If students want to follow the softer degrees then I don't think it unreasonable that they should contribute something financially themselves. I am interested to know, but can't find the answer to see the % of Maths degrees repaid compared to say a Make Up degree (that doesn't mean I think that make up artists have no value) but I'm not sure how much academic work there can be.
It strikes me that it is not sensible to borrow money which from the outset you know you cannot pay back. I realise if you don't pay it back it gets written off after the full term but it hinders your ability to get mortgages and other loans. Maybe this financial budgeting should be taught in schools because it applies to other things in life. Just because we want something doesn't mean we can have it.
I also wonder if we were in government where would WE be spending the funds, NHS, Law & Order, Pension, Mental Health, Social Services- are these more or less important than student loans? I have deliberately omitted Defence to avoid an onslaught.
These are not easy decisions and compromises sometimes have to be made.
I chose my career because my fees were paid and I got a small bursary and I have not regretted the decision.

So where is the opportunity for life-time learning here? How do people from disadvantaged homes who go out to work (if they can gt it) and later on discover they have skills, experience, interest, etc follow a certain career? So many jobs now require degrees, many of which would do better to allow certificated training with an on-going element, training and experience monitoring.

I'm sure there is lots of other bad news than student repayments that the government is planning to leak out while we are all watching Ukraine. And MPs will not have their eye so well on the ball regarding unsatisfactory government Bills while they are getting airtime about the war. Two comedians have risen to the top of their respective governments, the one in Ukraine a source of inspiration and courage to his people, the other in the UK.

I like your point Natasha about a breakdown table of 'time to pay back'. Always felt youngsters were just told it is beneficial to go to University but I don't think any school ran through a basic business plan on the financial costs and whether there is a profit. Certainly particular degrees will lead to better paid jobs and more opportunities.
Actually taking a degree is about achieving an academic standard - your ability to understand, interpret and communicate information. In this respect there should be no 'mickey mouse' degrees but obviously the knowledge and skills you acquire on degrees such as law, science, engineering, medicine have vocational value that leads into a particular field.

Franbern

Whilst everyone and the whole of news programmes are covering the tragedy unfolding in Ukraine, the UK government is still pushing ahead with some very unsavoury changes..
Not the least of these are the proposed changes for student loans to take place as from 2023/24.

This would mean that ex-students will start having to pay back these loans when they are earning £22,00 pa (as opposed to the current £24,000) AND the loan will now be extended for paying back for 40 years (now just 30 years).

This will have a big effect on poorer students, who take out the larger loans in order to see them through the three or four years of their degrees.

At present around 30% of loans are paid back fully over the thirty years (mainly due to low earnings of those graduates) - the changes are expected to make this 60%.

This is hardly being mentioned on any news programmes as it appears as if these services can only ever cover one item a day - a few weeks ago that was covid, now it is Ukraine.

Have you given a thought to the situation in Ukraine?
Far more important for world peace than whether a student can pay back a loan on a second rate degree that leads to nothing and we the public paying for their loans.
For lots it is a jolly which was shown by those who were interviewed at the beginning of Covid, they were more bothered about missing Freshers week than their future studies.
Lots of very imminent people who specialise in subjects other than when maths and English are needed would be disqualified from Entry.
When I was at school we had to have o level English to get into the sixth form so many very intelligent people fell at the first hurdle although today they would be considered Dyslexic.
Surely we should be thinking of the poor population of Ukraine and the ones who have had to flee their country.
I am sure many on grans net will have or know have people with relatives in the country and adjacent countries.
Lets get our priorities right.

*I thought it was always the rule that anyone applying for a university place had to have a pass in GCSE English and Maths?
Or was it just for BEd students?*

Lost in the mist of time for me. But what I do remember was that it was possible to do 3 year teacher training with just 5 O levels. That gained you a Certificate in Education which was perfectly valid to teach in most schools. A levels were only required if you wanted to do an extra year to get a B.Ed. And in terms of employment, I graduated during a recession. As those with a B.Ed were entitled to extra salary incremements we were not so attractive to cash strapped schools.

growstuff

Oldnproud He obviously slipped through the administrative net, but (as you said) he needed to do some serious Maths for his MSc. I would have thought it's essential for geography, given the amount of data involved.

The thing is, Growstuff, that despite his lack of a good grade in maths at 16 - at a time when he was quite disillusioned with school anyway - he had no trouble at all dealing with the data required at university.
And you are right - there is a lot of data involved in a geography BSc, and far far more in the masters degree in the subject that he went on to do some four or five years later.

Between those two degrees, he first temped long-term for a huge international company based in Newcastle, and within weeks was given responsible for huge budgets, and then did something similar in Canada for a year. Lack of a decent GCSE maths grade wasn't a problem, though he hated those jobs and the responsibility that went with it, which is what led him to eventually do the Masters what he had always planned to do and which he hoped would lead to the career he wanted.

I'm amazed at some of the degree courses offered nowadays leaving me wondering just how they applying to the job market. Only last week listened to a university lecturer who has a PhD in Vampires. Didn't even think they existed never mind courses to study about them. The changes may whittle down some of the really obscure courses. For the English and Maths qualification computers now assist a lot of youngsters with difficulty or disability in the subjects at school and continues on to further education. The old system of technical colleges where practical skills were taught from age 16 would help provide opportunities for those who really don't want to continue at school until 18. Apprenticeships could then start at 18 with the youngsters having basic knowledge of the subject they are interested in. Of course I can hear the cries of at 16 they are too young to know what they want to do. It's a horrible world, 16 year old making decisions. In some countries they are allowed to vote in elections. Not children then!

Sadly there are so many things this nasty little government are doing under cover of other events - including the Ukraine disaster.

They are still hiding the full extent of their Russian money, and how it was used.

The £ Shop Thatcher - Liz Truss - on Sky News was unable to explain why 0 (zero) cubic metres of Russian gas was purchased in David Cameron's last year or two, but under the present regime over 40 million cubic metres were bought. She even had the temerity to try and brush it off because "other countries" were buying in more!!

The student loan fiasco is just another example - and tragically there will be more to follow if we allow this shower to continue to damage lives and livelihoods.

How did somebody without basic Maths manage in business? Sorry, but Grade 4 Maths is not that demanding and I think anybody with a degree should have basic competency in Maths. These days, you would not have been able to opt out.
At the risk of repeating myself yet again, it is perfectly possible to have competency in Maths (way beyond the basic) without necessarily having an O level in it.

You may think that everyone with a degree should have O level Maths, but that isn't a good enough reason to deny others the opportunities that you were obviously given if your school offered four European languages. Not all school experiences are equal - perhaps that was even more true before the National Curriculum came in - but that doesn't mean that those who had fewer opportunities are less able.

Also, children mature at different ages, and someone who isn't interested in school between the ages of 14 and 16 may very well 'blossom' later, and be a capable student. Why prioritise Maths and English, anyway? Why not say that all students should have O levels in Politics, or Psychology, as the skills involved in these subjects underpin a lot of other subjects (eg how to read statistics, how to understand different perspectives, how to structure arguments and so on)?

As for people managing in business - you still haven't addressed the fact that people like Benjamin Zephaniah and Theo Paphitis are at the top of their respective trees without O levels in English.