Gender? Sex? Help me out please.

I've just put this on the other thread but, as the topic here has turned to women's sports, I'll ask here too:

The attached photo is of 3 women cyclists; all in the same race, same age group and therefore should be a level playing field. One of them is far taller, heavier and more muscular than the others. One of them was born male but says that they identify as a woman. Which one won?

Trisher, So will you stand up and say that allowing males to compete in female sport is wrong and unfair? Not becoming obsessed with one thing doesn’t mean you can’t answer that. It doesn’t need to be conflated with other other issues that are wrong in female sport. It’s an issue on its own. I suspect I’ll get another convoluted non-answer but the discussion is opening many more people’s eyes to the wrongdoing that is going on now and how it is being directed by men as I think you have mentioned, but sadly now, supported by women afraid to say that allowing males to compete in female sports is wrong.

In Holyrood Shona Robison MSP said “There is no evidence that predatory and abusive men have ever had to pretend to be anything else to carry out abusive and predatory behaviour”.

On the anniversary of Sarah Everard’s death, killed by a man who pretended to be an on duty police officer in order to pretend to arrest her in order to actually kidnap her so he could eventually kill her, my Cabinet Secretary made a tactless and factually incorrect statement. In doing so, she made herself look like an absolute balloon, and a new wave of women realised that #bekind is not for the likes of them.

thecritic.co.uk/women-wont-wheesht/

Something to think about.

trisher if people have to deliberately misinterpret your points and tefur to accept explanations or assign thinking to you that's not there, in order to win an argument... Something that has happened a lot more than usual lately... What they are not seeing is that, that may work on like minded others who think shutting down even moderate voices is the only way to "win". Where it won't work, is on the average objective reader. They're just sabotaging their own arguments

And refuse to accept explanations that should say

Mollygo

Trisher, So will you stand up and say that allowing males to compete in female sport is wrong and unfair? Not becoming obsessed with one thing doesn’t mean you can’t answer that. It doesn’t need to be conflated with other other issues that are wrong in female sport. It’s an issue on its own. I suspect I’ll get another convoluted non-answer but the discussion is opening many more people’s eyes to the wrongdoing that is going on now and how it is being directed by men as I think you have mentioned, but sadly now, supported by women afraid to say that allowing males to compete in female sports is wrong.

The fact that these issues are being highlighted by sport means that more and more people will become aware of them, Molly, and I think that the pendulum will start to swing. Women are sick of being gaslighted into 'being kind', and when they see the blatant unfairness of a large strong man winning the 'women's' swimming it will tip the balance.

I agree Doodledog there's ever more sunlight being generated by the sports issues. Mollygo it would be nice if just for once people were prepared to consider a single aspect of the problems in sport.
One thing that puzzles me is why none of the top rated male athletes have transitioned while competing. I mean why should people like Usain Bolt be immune from gender identity matters? It certainly appears that gender identity issues requiring transition to become a transwoman happen to mediocre athletes.

volver

Well as a scientist I certainly knew about the difference between sex and gender, but I appreciate people taking time to explain it.

But "science" doesn't explain why people are so angry about some of this and what a big deal it is for them. So I was thinking this thread was going somewhere, especially with what VioletSky was writing. I hope we get more thoughtful posts like that, and less of the rudeness. Yes, I'm looking at you Riverwalk

Let's see.

I'm thinking on starting a thread on Dawkins

I think "some " people, not all of us, are angry about this because it makes them feel insecure.

Personally, I have always been able to accept that some small children wanted to play with toys that in our childhood were considered more suitable for the opposite sex than to their own, and that some adults' sexual preference is for their own sex rather than the opposite.

The 1970s were enjoyable to us who were twenty or so then, just because it no longer was a criminal offence for consenting adults to have sex with a same-sex parter, and kindergarten teachers stopped telling little girls they shouldn't play with train sets, or little boys not to play with dolls.

As far as I am concerned if someone conventionally described as male because physically the possessor of penis and testicles wishes to dress as a woman, and be addressed as one, or a person physically female (born with a uterus, ovaries etc.) wishes to dress as a man and be addressed as such, that is and should be their business.

The same applies to those who by surgical means change their outward appearence to match the gender they feel they are, and those who remain physically the sex they were born, but have a sexual preference for those who physically resemble them, and those who are able to fall in love with both men and women.

In most walks of life none of all this should be a concern.

However, I can see that putting a rapist in a women's prison because he defines himself as a woman is problematical, if for no other reason on logical grounds - surely if you define yourself as female you don't go around raping women, even if physically capable of the crime?

In competative sport the issue of superior strength arises, and on the battlefield any woman who defines herself as a man, but physically is a woman runs as great a risk of rape if captured by the enemy as any other female soldier does.

However, none of this should cause anger. It should and must be possible to repect an adult's informed choice whether we agree with it or not in what is basically a private matter.

grandtante same

I think you are missing some of the point, grandtante. The whole concept of 'gender' is based around the idea that some things are suitable for women and girls, and others for boys and men. That is what many women object to. If someone 'identifies' as the opposite gender, all they are doing is reinforcing the notion that there are things that are suitable for them to do and others that are off limits - whether that is clothing, hobbies, occupations or whatever. For feminists who have been fighting against these constraints all their lives, this is a huge step backwards.

Sexuality has nothing to do with this either, or at least not on the straight or LGB spectrum. Some transwomen identify as lesbians, as they are sexually attracted to women (ie they are heterosexual males). Most, if not all of these are AGF (autogynephiles) who are sexually excited at the thought of being women, and they can get aggressive if women refuse to have sex with them, as refusal to believe that they are female 'bursts their bubble'.

Quite apart from the fact that women's spaces are being lost, with the attendant dangers we have seen in the recent hospital rape, men insisting that they are women means that they are more likely to win at sport, and if they are counted as female in statistics even fewer things are likely to accommodate women, or to pay attention to their needs.

It's really not just a matter of respecting someone's informed choice.

Thanks Doodledog. There’s also the issue of the informed choice of others

VS
What they are not seeing is that, that may work on like minded others who think shutting down even moderate voices is the only way to "win"

Exactly, except that that applies to your posts not the posters you are criticising.
You post the same thing, trying to shut down, cancel or even delete moderate posters who see the increasing dominance of males in any area being supported by females as worrying-not a matter of winning.
In this case, to do with males competing in female sport. There may be a lot wrong with female sport, but that doesn’t mean one issue should not be addressed until everything is sorted.
So now I’m asking you VS as well as trisher, will you stand up and say that allowing males to compete in female sport is wrong and unfair.
In a room full of female athletes, weightlifters and swimmers who have trained long and hard, but lost out to a man competing as a woman, would you remain seated.
On GN where we are all incognito:

Allowing males to compete in female sport is wrong and unfair.

There need be only a yes or no answer.
It’s not dependent on whether or not he has taken hormone suppressants, or whether he is intact, or whether he has lost in male competitions and is desperate for a medal, or whether everyone has agreed to call him ‘she’. Simply whether his being male gives him an unfair advantage that all the training in the world won’t make the competition fair.

Allowing males to compete in female sport is wrong and unfair.

Yes-you believe it’s wrong and unfair.
No -you believe it’s right and fair

No answer-you can’t bring yourself to say one way or the other. In which case . . .

if a man got into my daughter's care home and said he was woman and raped her, I would be certifiable

what on earth is wrong with 'some' of you ?

I wonder the same JaneJudge makes you think doesn't it?

I wondered what would happen when it all started to go wrong as it was always going to do, I thought there would be some dramatic wiping of past twitter posts and denial that they ever said that but no they just double down. Its astounding to watch.

Thank you Doodledog.

Sexuality has nothing to do with this either, or at least not on the straight or LGB spectrum. Some transwomen identify as lesbians, as they are sexually attracted to women (ie they are heterosexual males). Most, if not all of these are AGF (autogynephiles) who are sexually excited at the thought of being women, and they can get aggressive if women refuse to have sex with them, as refusal to believe that they are female 'bursts their bubble'.

Quite apart from the fact that women's spaces are being lost, with the attendant dangers we have seen in the recent hospital rape, men insisting that they are women means that they are more likely to win at sport, and if they are counted as female in statistics even fewer things are likely to accommodate women, or to pay attention to their needs.

I remember when one of the first women's refuges was set up in Richmond, Surrey. A virtually derelict riverside building was taken over as a temporary shelter. I lived opposite it. My then partner who was handy with a screwdriver and familiar with electrical wiring, etc, volunteered to set up some temporary heating and lighting (he was one of those men who supported what we called, at the time, 'Women's Liberation'). The building was a mess, and I remember distinctly him saying words to the effect that it was ridiculous that there were no established, legal, safe places for abused women and children. Well now there are, and they were hard-won, and not without controversy and opposition either. Yet, here we are having to fight the fight again.

A trans woman with a penis may well not be a threat to women and girls, but that's not the point which is that the abused women and girls need a space that is run by and for them. Trans women also suffer abuse and violence and they need safe spaces too - but why does it have to be women's space? Why is it considered transphobic to recognise that a trans woman's experiences and a woman's experiences will not be the same, and need different approaches in counselling and care?

When we started on this journey of 'Liberation' from male dominance, I never expected that one day we'd have have to defend not only our rights, but the very concept of being a woman.

There was controversy over the occupation in Richmond, some locals were outraged. But there was also support - practical support by way of donations of clothing, bedding, toys and money. Ultimately the women were turfed out (it was an illegal occupation) and a place was found in Chiswick... and that's now part of history. The riverside was redeveloped and there may not be many people left in Richmond who remember this episode. I no longer live there.

Thanks for reminding us of the work feminists and the men who supported us, did to establish women's refuges. We raised money. Lobbied the council for one of its large, empty properties.
It isn’t transphobic to acknowledge that the experiences of trans women and women may share some aspects but they aren’t the same. My lived experience as a woman of a similar age to Caitlin Jenner are different. We may share some experiences and the feelings the caused. That could equally be said about the men I share my life with

Mollygo - thanks for reassign the questions.

Re-stating the questions
Gremlins in auto correct

It takes us back to where we started. Sex is set at or shortly after conception. Gender is merely a social construct.

What we need to be clear about is what traits of a person are physical and arise from the sex they were born - Probably inherent strength and build and what are purely socially defined and which anyone can adopt regardless of sex - what we wear, our social behaviour etc.

Just to throw this into the ring:
www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-10634127/DOMINIC-LAWSON-police-NHS-insist-male-bodied-rapists-women.html

Thanks for the link chestnut.

Thanks Chestnut, tweaking the crime stats to show that men are committing fewer sex crimes, whilst "women" are committing more, has far reaching consequences for the judicial and prison system.

Thanks chewbacca I do not often agree with Dominic Lawson, but in this case I do.