Gender? Sex? Help me out please.

@ DWP

I nearly had a heart attack this morning as I received a letter from the court of protection without warning (I am sure they used to warn you)

trisher I see you fail to answer your own question about which is worse. I pointed out the unequal disadvantages, in one case one athlete disadvantaged, in the other many, many athletes disadvantaged. In the US college system a scholarship is the only way many people can access a college education. Sporting scholarships are at a premium and especially those for women. You don't seem to care that natal males who transition deny a female a sporting scholarship.

Whilst simultaneously condemning a transwomen who has simply taken the application of drugs and surgery to another level. Lia Thomas has lowered their testosterone levels but not had any surgery. Lia has made fellow team mates uncomfortable in the communal locker room where they strip off naked.

It seems it is OK to medicate a woman in some circumstances but not in others. I have no idea what you mean by this. Lia Thomas isn't a woman Lia Thomas is a transwoman with an adult male body and advantage. Lia holds records that if it were Mo Farrah would be the equivalent of being record holder at 400m 1500m and 5000m. Lia made the choice to take medication in order to swim against women. Lia could still swim against men if Lia wished, even as a transwoman, although of course Lia would go back to not winning.

Galaxy

Galaxy wishes that people who know absolutely zero about the issues involved will stop telling people they are bigots. I mean at least try and be original.
I think you missed out the word witches though.

Doodledog thinks that Galaxy is talking sense.

Rosie agrees with Galaxy and Doodledog.

Rosie is also reminded of a meme she saw elsewhere that read

"This is not an airport there is no need to announce your departure"

We could start a trend of posting in the third person.
I need to announce my departure. I need to do some work .
I once spent a whole day debating this issue with Trisher whilst arguing on another thread about how productive home working was

iam64 agrees with Rosie, Galaxy and Doodledog.
iam64 isn’t ironing her flouncing frock and plans to stay even though it’s making her head ache

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

GG13 only popped to her local shop, she hasn’t flounced (she hasn’t got the energy to do so ?)

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

Oh dear someone's finger was on the report button. It's amazing the insulting posts that are left to stand, and the mildly comic ones get deleted. Still if we don't report the insulting ones they get to stand for all to see.

Sorry if I touched a nerve there. I’ll just go back to posting that gender is a social construct and sex is immutable then. (Re title) and watching out for further derailments.

I didn’t see your post Mollygo so can’t comment. I did see Chewbacca’s, should I be ashamed to say it made me smile.

I'm delighted it hit where it was meant to Iam64 and it's meaning was fully understood.

It's such a fine line to tread on emotive subjects like these - between being emphatic about your belief, and insulting someone with that emphasis - and possibly not actually meaning to cause offence.

And that is the problem with social media. The written word is taken at face value in a way the spoken word in a physical group is not, when you can see the person you're communicating with, and there is space and time to clarify or qualify what you say.

But, compared to some other SM sites, GN is, generally speaking, a model of restraint and civility. At least, that's my experience.

Crikey yes Dickens. Its the wild west out there.

From trisher The question I asked remains unanswered which is worse to compete and lose to a transwoman or to be banned from competing because of a function of your woman's body

What does your question mean? Who are you talking about?
I have no problem with someone who is female, and has a natural advantage of some kind, being in female sports.
I do have a problem with someone who is male, even if they have taken medication to reduce their advantage, being in female sports.
I don't know if that is what your question was about.

FarNorth

From trisher The question I asked remains unanswered which is worse to compete and lose to a transwoman or to be banned from competing because of a function of your woman's body

What does your question mean? Who are you talking about?
I have no problem with someone who is female, and has a natural advantage of some kind, being in female sports.
I do have a problem with someone who is male, even if they have taken medication to reduce their advantage, being in female sports.
I don't know if that is what your question was about.

Caister Semenya and two other black African women athletes are banned from competing because their bodies produce naturally high levels of testosterone. They are required to medicate before they can compete again. CS has tried the medication and reported significant side effects.
So these women who have lived as women all their lives are banned from competing. Now I would have imagined that any woman would support them and insist that medicating someone was not acceptable but they don't.
It seems to me that protesting about a single transwomen who has taken medication to change her body but not protesting about a woman who is being forced to medicate herself shows that the issue isn't really women, becase why wouldn't you support the woman? But only really transwomen. Which as far as women's sport goes is pretty narrow minded. It has dreadful and long history of being abusive to women.

trisher
If what you say about Caster Semenya is true, then I would support CS being in female sports.
Lia/Will Thomas is not in that category, he has been a male all along.

'Which is worse' isn't relevant. The two situations are separate and are, I would think, equally distressing for the women who lose out.

Can you not imagine competitions to come where women and girls have no chance at all of winning because there are so many trans competitors?
A sample of that was seen with Andrea Yearwood and Terry Miller in USA college sports.

FarNorth

trisher
If what you say about Caster Semenya is true, then I would support CS being in female sports.
Lia/Will Thomas is not in that category, he has been a male all along.

'Which is worse' isn't relevant. The two situations are separate and are, I would think, equally distressing for the women who lose out.

Can you not imagine competitions to come where women and girls have no chance at all of winning because there are so many trans competitors?
A sample of that was seen with Andrea Yearwood and Terry Miller in USA college sports.

FarNorth I just think women's sport has been a complete mess for far too long and even if you banned every transwoman the problems would remain. The history is horrendous, intimate examinations, intrusive testing it's all gone on. Black and Asian woman have suffered the most with one committing suicide when she was ruled a man although she had lived all her life as a woman. And although I may feel sorry for women losing to transmen I'm sure banning them won't really improve things for women.

Well it would improve things for every single woman who lost to a man. And those who lose scholarships because of it.

Trisher
And although I may feel sorry for women losing to transmen I'm sure banning them won't really improve things for women. That’s appalling.
You’re basically saying that because unacceptable and unfair treatment happened to CS and others that means that it’s OK women should still put up with unfair treatments because this time the unfairness is caused by males.
Is this an example of intersectional feminism?

Mollygo

Trisher
And although I may feel sorry for women losing to transmen I'm sure banning them won't really improve things for women. That’s appalling.
You’re basically saying that because unacceptable and unfair treatment happened to CS and others that means that it’s OK women should still put up with unfair treatments because this time the unfairness is caused by males.
Is this an example of intersectional feminism?

No (why do people insist on filtering my views and re presenting them wrongly?)
I am saying that women's sport has been and still is run by men who show absolutely no respect for women and particularly black women and that banning transwomen will do nothing to stop that. The trans lobby seem concerned with girls in America but the problem actually is much more deeply rooted. The sexism won't go away even if transwomen are banned. It has been going for a long time. I would have imagined any feminist would be concerned for the abuse those women have experienced. This is interesting about the ethics of insisting on the medical intervention www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-01606-8

No (why do people insist on filtering my views and re presenting them wrongly?) I’m not at all.
trisher
is saying that women's sport has been and still is run by men who show absolutely no respect for women. I’m agreeing!
And by allowing or supporting transwomen competing in female sports categories, you are evidently promulgating the continuation of male dominance.

Mollygo

No (why do people insist on filtering my views and re presenting them wrongly?) I’m not at all.
trisher
is saying that women's sport has been and still is run by men who show absolutely no respect for women. I’m agreeing!
And by allowing or supporting transwomen competing in female sports categories, you are evidently promulgating the continuation of male dominance.

I haven't allowed or supported any such thing Mollygo- I do wonder if mansplaining is the term for a man telling a women how things work what's the term for a woman who keeps telling another woman what she thinks?
I have simply said women's sport is a complete mess and not become obsessed with one thing.