Gender? Sex? Help me out please.

Ditto Galaxy and Chewbacca.

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This small % want to claim those rights and behave in a way that damages the reputation of most transwomen. Sadly, this second group are vociferously supported by some females.

You're not wrong there MollyGo; this person says that he's a woman. He demands to be acknowledged and respected as such. He does this by saying If SRS is such a fucking privilege, stop degrading our bodies on the basis of transmisogyny. Acknowledge me as a woman- me and My beard and My Dick and all my Testosterone. Then we won't have a problem.
This "dick haver" is, allegedly "A multi disciplinary performance maker, sound designer and composer of Spanish British background. Her work focuses mainly on exploring the socio political boundaries of gender, sexuality and intimacy."

I wonder what a socio political boundary too far is? Are the trans activists and their allies comfortable with the fact that their promotion of anyone being able to self id as a woman, and who threatens to "break the face" of anyone who questions him, has resulted in this? Does it bother you at all? Or do you think it's fine; they're causing no harm?

'Drawing on her experience of womanhood' ?

I'd hazard a guess that that experience is rather different from mine!

The Poet In The City festival is using poetry as a medium to celebrate women's lives, and is a great idea, but why does it have to be 'topped and tailed' by a transwoman with a beard? Is there not enough to celebrate in the lives of women, without it all having to be validated by someone so obviously male?

Can the TRAs not see that this sort of thing, along with the IWD debacle at the Vagina Museum and many more similar examples, is undermining women? This is exactly what so-called GC feminists complain about when we say that we are being asked to move aside for men. It's the Artistic equivalent of the ads where women enthusiastically discussed floor cleaners until a male voice chimed in to explain the science, known in the trade as 2CK (two Cwords in a kitchen) in case you were in any doubt about the relative status of the male and female voices, or the more recent ones where a simpering woman is told by her male neighbour about the benefits of an over 50 funeral plan. Women are humoured by being given a voice (after all, they are the ones buying the floor cleaner or the funeral plans) but it needs to be validated by a man. That sort of thing was denounced by feminists decades ago, although it still goes on.

These days, the 'man' may claim to be a woman, so not only does a male voice dominate, but he gets top billing, too, and the added bonus that the whole performance is seen as 'inclusive'. If the 'top and tail' poet were a transwoman who lived as female, was a really good poet and didn't make a song and dance about her trans status, fair enough - that could be an extension of what is meant by womanhood, but this is a different matter entirely.

Isn't it?

Yes, Doodledog, it’s a different matter entirely

These days, the 'man' may claim to be a woman, so not only does a male voice dominate, but he gets top billing, too, and the added bonus that the whole performance is seen as 'inclusive'.

Exactly so Doodledog; there is clearly a shortage of women poets who could eulogise and celebrate on what it is to be a woman, and so we have to have a man, who wants to celebrate his "beard, dick and testosterone" instead. Another woman pushed off the podium to make way for a man. But I'm interested on hearing from the trans supporters and allies as to whether this is what they envisioned in the brave new world.

It is indeed Doodledog.
Are the trans activists and their allies comfortable with the fact that their promotion of anyone being able to self id as a woman, and who threatens to "break the face" of anyone who questions him, has resulted in this?

From what I’ve read, yes they are happy about it. Some claim that they’d never support his violence, but supporting the person indicates support for the actions.

Sure, we support nut jobs who are actually cis men. If you believe that, you'll believe anything. But then... that's what this is all about. Catastropising and fantasy. Not inhabiting the real world with trans people who are scared, vulnerable and normal people.

Catastropising (sic) and fantasy. Not inhabiting the real world with trans people who are scared, vulnerable and normal people.

Your reply baffles me Gagajo; this person is a publicly lauded example of an erudite trans woman. He's been given a platform, that was widely publicised as being "long awaited" and "much anticipated" so it appears that he has some degree of merit and respect within the trans community. It would appear that the trans community consider him to ve a long way off being
a nut job

GagaJo

Sure, we support nut jobs who are actually cis men. If you believe that, you'll believe anything. But then... that's what this is all about. Catastropising and fantasy. Not inhabiting the real world with trans people who are scared, vulnerable and normal people.

This is the real world, GagaJo.

Google it.

We know about the scared and vulnerable transpeople - of course we do. As we keep saying, we are supportive of them. But as you keep saying, you refuse to believe us. I don't know why, but you do.

Anyway. Why do you say that this guy is a 'cis man'? If I said that, I'd be accused of misgendering, not being respectful, transphobic and so on. I would really appreciate an answer to this.

Does it mean that he's a trans woman but not the right sort of trans man? A bit like being that elusive woman who is not the right sort of woman that we keep hearing about? Is that what it means?

2) I think 'ill-intentioned trans' are in a tiny minority. Probably a fraction of less than 1%. And that tiny number will include (as I said above) cis men, using it as a disguise to commit crime.
Apart from claiming an ever smaller number of ill-intentioned TW, which we have no proof is true, I’m beginning to like this.

I’ve read GGJ say twice what I’ve been saying for a long time-that some ill-intentioned tw are men using it as a disguise to commit crime.

So GGJ can we also agree that those tw who are males using tw claims as a disguise to commit crime should be incarcerated in male prisons?

Doh! ^Does it mean that he's a trans woman but not the right sort of trans WOMAN?^apologies, fat finger syndrome!

How are we supposed to be able to tell the difference between the right kind of transwoman and the wrong kind, so that we can keep ourselves safe?

Well, it seems that even the TRAs can't tell the difference between this so-called 'cis men' and a transwomen, so how are the rest of us mortals meant to do it?

Given that it would appear to be impossible, how do we know if any bearded bloke in a dress is a transwoman (and therefore A Woman, whatever that means) or simply a bearded bloke in a dress, and therefore a so-called 'cis man'?

And how do we know whether it's a good idea to let our 12 year old daughter/granddaughter undress in front of him, or whether to get into the next bed in a hospital ward, or agree that he should share the girls' tent in a Guide camp? Would saying no to this 'cis man' doing any of the above be transphobic? Unkind, then? Or basic safeguarding?

Any thoughts?

No problem.
If it’s a bearded man in a dress, he’s either a transwoman (TWANW) or going to a fancy dress ball.
If it’s a bearded man in a dress, appearing somewhere that’s meant for females, in any of the situations you mention above, it’s a ill- intentioned transwoman and definitely an AHM.
If a transwoman deliberately appears in the guise of a male, even in a frock, he’s ill-intentioned.

As you say Doodledog; this is now the real world. It's the world created by those who have been falling over themselves to be seen as kind, accommodating and willing to allow them to be their authentic selves whilst failing to see that by removing all previously held societal conventions and safeguards, they've enabled nut jobs to make far more difficulties for the scared, vulnerable and normal people who happen to be natal women and trans women. The baby went out with the bath water folks.

Chewbacca, Doodledog, you said it!

I saw this on MN and I've "borrowed" it because it so perfectly says what I want to say but I'm not articulate enough to explain it:

In practice, no-one is going to 'police' who visits which toilet, but what the single-sex rule does is make it possible to object and complain if a man does enter the female toilets. Without such a rule women would have no right to object. We would have to put up with it with no legal or regulatory recourse.

The rule also acts as a deterrent. At present there is nothing to physically stop a man going into the women's toilets to assault someone, but it doesn't usually happen because of the taboo against men being seen to go into the 'ladies room'. At present such a predator generally chooses some other location. Without the taboo or rule in place, more predatory men would feel more comfortable being seen going into the female areas.

On the whole I think most women don't object (and historically haven't objected) to what you might call 'genuine' transwomen (the type with dysphoria who make every effort to 'pass') using the female areas. The social convention is that we all turn a blind eye and mind our own business if nobody is causing any trouble.

But if an aggressive male fetishist in a dress comes in demanding to share make-up or engage in his idea of 'girly talk', women at present have the right to complain (to whoever is in charge of the facilities) about his presence and get him removed. Or at least we did have that right until a few years ago... I'm not sure how successful such a complaint would actually be now.

That's very well put, and neatly answers the 'who is going to police it?' question that we keep getting asked (it really is the same hymn sheet, isn't it?).

I wonder if we are reaching the point where those who see themselves as 'kind', or 'tolerant', or part of the zeitgeist are realising that we cynics have a point - that it's all very well wanting the harmless and troubled souls to be left in peace, but that doing so will open doors to more dangerous 'nut jobs'? That we aren't 'trans exclusionary', we aren't transphobic, we aren't even behind the times - we are just wise to the reality of the situation, and that we want to keep ourselves and other women safe from the ill-intentioned amongst the so-called 'cis men' who have pounced on the opportunities the 'allies' have afforded them, and used them to further their misogynist agendas.

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Fionne Orlander can easily pass in the Ladies but does, as far as I know, use the Gents.

If we are reorganising society, tho, we need to do it so that everyone is 'comfortable' not just tell women to shut up and lump it.

GagaJo are you suggesting that respected poet, Alexis Beaufoy-Salguero is a nut job and a cis man ?

Why do you say that AB-S identifies with the sex & gender that were assigned at birth, since we have AB-S's word for it on being a woman?

It would be really useful if you could explain to us.

It would be really useful if you could explain to us
Don’t hold your breath, FN. We’ve been here before. After a massive own goal, a request for clarification or even a recognition that we may just have had a point - that we haven’t been shouting into a void for so long - is met with complete radio silence.

The more evidence we provide that the trans movement is a cover for blatant misogyny, the more we will be accused of DEMANDING answers, of arrogance or of duplicitous behaviour - if we aren’t simply ignored altogether, as we are for asking ‘trick questions’, such as ‘what is a woman?’

If we then refer to this in the next round of threads (and these issues recur with tedious regularity, so the next round will happen before we’ve had time to draw breath) we’ll be reported for starting threads about threads, or of ‘picking on’ individuals - being regressive and ‘unkind’.

We may as well just talk amongst ourselves for a while, put the kettle on and wait for the next story to break.

Doodledog, @ 7:30 nailed it!
??
Though it would be good if it turns out differently.

Doodledog has indeed nailed it!

Well I hope the transphobic (who of course aren't on here) are proud of themselves they have managed to get a live event, which was composed mostly of women and featured one transwoman, cancelled. It will be moved on-line. To be honest the artist in discussion sounds a bit of a prat but it would have been nice if people could have judged for themselves www.poetinthecity.co.uk/news/statement-herstory
Ironic isn't it really people who insist they are supporting women managed to shut down a programme, which was created, organised and performed by women, through threats and intimidation, And some women support that.