Gender? Sex? Help me out please.

Chewbacca spoke for me. I have been following the Maya Forstater employment tribunal on Mumsnet, fascinating, most mumsnetters seem to agreed with Chebacca and me!

Excellent post Chewbacca.

We feminists don’t need an adjective to qualify us. As feminists care for women and their rights.
Which leaves us free to support other members of society, male, or trans, but not to support those male &co who mean women (AHF) harm which the feminists who say intersectional but are really patriarchal feel it’s OK to do.

The thing is I think it's important to engage with and have empathy for the women outside your own circles and realms of opinion. Because in this debate the voices of all women do matter.

There was a point where I was reading all opinions and links and understanding people's fears which is still true.

There was a point where I stopped reading comments that assigned me with beliefs or feelings that were not there.

Then there was a point where I stopped reading comments insulting me for things I am not.

There was a point where I stopped engaging directly so that I couldn't have my words twisted into something unrecognisable.

Now I just have this general feeling of being "the wrong sort of woman".

Jokes aside: This actually only damages the GC viewpoints because people sitting i
On the fence will eventually be pushed off and make the divide greater..

What we really need, in my opinion, to affect positive change is a place to meet in the middle...

It's a shame

grannysyb

Chewbacca spoke for me. I have been following the Maya Forstater employment tribunal on Mumsnet, fascinating, most mumsnetters seem to agreed with Chebacca and me!

I've just caught up with that thread, grannysyb. Fascinating, and yes, good to see that the tide is on the turn, and that those who try to get others' points of view cancelled, deleted or otherwise silenced are learning that it isn't going to happen.

What middle would you suggest VS. If your 'middle' removes single sex spaces its not really a middle is it.

Galaxy

What middle would you suggest VS. If your 'middle' removes single sex spaces its not really a middle is it.

This is a example of what I mean

I've never advocated for this. Not once.

I've suggested means of making spaces that trans people can use because they do need to use the bathroom and try on clothes and have shelter from abuse too but I have never advocated that women are left without safe spaces. Not once.

But sperate secure toilets have been shouted down

Facilities like prisons or refuges with separate wings/areas/floors for trans people have been shouted down

Single cubicle changing spaces have been shouted down

Using more language to include trans people in top of what already existed has been shouted down

Even though there are many women just like me who need and want more privacy to use the bathroom and try on clothes or get ready to swim and our needs matter too.

I dont think its shouting down I think its disagreeing with. But for many women a refuge that includes men just isnt a safe space. And their needs are who the refuges were created for and who are protected by law.

I think its perfectly possible to have both mixed sex and single sex provision alongside each other. It will cost of course.

Who hasn’t tried to meet in the middle?

I have agreed that all transwomen are not to blame for the evils and falsehoods perpetrated by a small % of transwomen and we sympathise with the majority of trans who are damaged by this small %.

I have agreed that transmen and transwomen should have separate prison sections, but unless totally separate, feel they should linked to the sex assigned at birth, of the prisoners, rather than their often suddenly assumed transwomen claims.

I have agreed that some natal women can be violent, whilst refusing to accept this as an excuse for the violence perpetrated by transwomen.

I have not refused people the option to ‘change gender’ whilst reiterating the truth that sex is immutable, except when the change is for nefarious purposes.

I have however refused to accept that
ill-intentioned males should have access to places that should be safe for women. E.g. refuges, women’s hospital wards. Personal experience has shown me how wrong this is.

I have also, refused to accept the skewing of crime figures where crimes committed by by people ‘who were assigned male at birth’ (stupid phrase, but it could be usefully used to assign males to the correct prison!) Changing the meaning of ‘rape’ is one really sick attempt to skew abuse figures.

I have refused to condone the cheating in female sport by those who were assigned male at birth.

What concessions have the so called intersectional feminists made? What have they done to make things any better for the females they purport to be?

Galaxy

What middle would you suggest VS. If your 'middle' removes single sex spaces its not really a middle is it.

There can't really be middle, can there, Galaxy?

We either have male and female spaces, open both to all comers (in other words get rid of them altogether), or have separate male, female and trans spaces. I doubt there are enough transpeople to make the second one a viable option, and in any case it would be likely to offend the AGF transwomen who think that they 'pass' as female.

So long as we allow male bodied people into what used to be female spaces there is a problem, like it or not. In most cases there will be no ill-effects, but when there are (such as in the case of the prisoner upthread) they are catastrophic for the women affected, or in a non-violent, but equally impactful example, the Lia Thomas case, or the statistical anomalies that happen when rapes are recorded as female crimes.

It is not that so-called GC people are not willing to compromise, so much as the fact that any 'compromise' suggested involves us giving away safety, dignity and/or achievement.

You all type so much faster than I do ??

Doodledog

You all type so much faster than I do ??

I dictate my responses then add **. Sometimes it makes more work.

Well then it's obvious that even GC feminists don't agree on everything isn't it.

The only thing that really makes my voice different is that I agree trans women are women...

That and the fact I believe we can make this work for trans people because otherwise we will create a group of people who have no place at all.

Yet given that my views don't allow for women to lose safe spaces, don't allow for women to lose out in sports and don't allow for women to lose their terms...

TWAW...

That's the only thing that makes me different really other than another voice with individual perspectives on how to make everyone feel more comfortable..

So why have I been treated so badly in discussion and been accused of so many things I could not do, let alone would not do. Why have I never received an apology for awful things said about my character?

Why have I been left in a position where I feel I can't safely engage without being misrepresented? I speak the same language, I try to be respectful.

That's a question that has never been answered to my satisfaction other than assertions that I mean things I absolutely do not.

But I've been trying to point this out for a long time and I really don't expect to be heard now...

I'll keep an open mind though.

Is saying that something is true when it isn’t really true but it’s what I think acceptable on GN now?

(I may have had to ignore biology and change the established meaning of words to make my claim true.)

Just asking.

The science behind why trans people exist is still being researched so I keep an open mind.

It doesnt seem logical that average, every day trans people who are not causing women or anyone else any harm are transitioning for no reason.

In the interim, I either accept they are valid or I don't.

But what I won't do is make a group of people have no space at all.

It really doesn't matter why it is happening when it is clearly happening

Thats the whole basis of the debate to be honest VS. You and many others believe TWAW, and other people dont. Thats where the disagreement starts I suppose.
Gender critical feminists dont agree on everything, in fact I would say lots of people on this thread wouldnt class themselves as GC, its the same as people in the labour party dont hold all the same views, or any of the same views in some cases .

I'm only using GC to describe those who don't believe people can change sex/gender and not as an insult.

So I hope no one takes it that way

Galaxy

Thats the whole basis of the debate to be honest VS. You and many others believe TWAW, and other people dont. Thats where the disagreement starts I suppose.
Gender critical feminists dont agree on everything, in fact I would say lots of people on this thread wouldnt class themselves as GC, its the same as people in the labour party dont hold all the same views, or any of the same views in some cases .

Well put Galaxy. It’s the fact that TWANW because they were ‘assigned male at birth” to use some posters favourite phraseology, that is at the root of all of it.

That and, despite the fact that the majority of TW are happy to dress as they like and neither flaunt their male attributes nor claim rights that belong to females, there is a small % who aren’t satisfied with that. This small % want to claim those rights and behave in a way that damages the reputation of most transwomen. Sadly, this second group are vociferously supported by some females.

I agree, Galaxy, that GC is not even a term that we all think applies - it is foisted upon us, as with TERF, transphobic and the assumption that we don't care about transpeople. Speaking personally, I don't find the term offensive, though, as I do criticise the idea that gender is more important than sex, and I find the way that it is sneaking into the language in ways that replace the term 'sex' to be invidious - eg 'same gender attraction' which erases gay people, whose sexuality is based firmly on same-sex attraction.

I see gender-based pronouns as affectations, but can live with them if (and only if) they are not imposed on me, and if (and only if) they do not ever find their way into legal or other official records, such as government statistics or in law courts, where truth is far more important than feelings.

I think the idea that so-called 'misgendering' is heinous is self-indulgent, but again, basic manners dictate that I would always use someone's preferred form of address out of politeness in social situations.

I do compromise on these things, just as in many other areas of life. Why would anyone assume otherwise? It doesn't mean that I think for a second that TWAW, though - they are transwomen, and will never be otherwise, although they are no less worthy as a result.

Of course GC people don't agree on everything. Why would we? There is not a rule book or catechism that we all learn - we have come to our own conclusions individually, and are not sheep.

So is having an opinion on one matter based on one's own research a justifiable reason to write off another person in total?

Or a person who went through a physical crisis and behaves out of character for a time unforgivable?

Or are we all individually responsible for how we conduct ourselves and react to others?

Are we all responsible for taking responsibility and apologising and showing people kindness and respect no matter what our differences or personal struggles?

I dont know what you mean to be honest VS, and I am as wary of 'be kind' as I was of 'stay safe' And I cant tell you how much that used to irritate me .

Sorry VS your post doesn’t mak sense to me. I’ll start with two points to keep it short.

So is having an opinion on one matter based on one's own research a justifiable reason to write off another person in total?
???
What research? Who has been ‘written off in total?

Or a person who went through a physical crisis and behaves out of character for a time unforgivable?
Which person? What crisis? Behaved out of character how?

galaxy I'm glad you don't know what I mean

But when it comes to kindness, if that's not reciprocated I agree, to an extent anyway, this is a public forum and if I was rude all the time I might alienate myself from people who I'm not even speaking too

Anyway

I've got a bad habit of saying what I think when it's best to shut up

Ditto Galaxy!