Gender? Sex? Help me out please.

JaneJudge

^That person has some concerns about how changes in sex and gender law could have consequences for women and girls^

Yup women with disability who under current law can specify female only personal care

Why are people not concerned about changes that affect other vulnerable female born groups?

It isn't being transphobic it is being sensible. Safeguarding shouldn't be affected by changes to law surrounding this issue imo

Excatly. One of the brave dissenters on GN who said that there were other things to consider when choosing who to vote for, did say that it may change people's mind if the female carer they has requested due to the intimate nature of their care, turned out to be 6foot 3 and bearded. But a 'woman'

As I said, I'm grateful (as a teacher) that she got children reading.

But her writing ISN'T that good. She isn't Murdoch or Atwood or Morrison. I don't take that opinion from abridged versions. From the real thing. I read a lot and have read some of her stuff. The least bad I read (IMO) was The Casual Vacancy, but even that was average.

But fair play to her. She got generations of children reading and has made a huge fortune from her writing.

GillT57 I abhor literary snobbery, definitely indicates more about those who practice it than the authors they criticise.

GrannyGravy13

GillT57 I abhor literary snobbery, definitely indicates more about those who practice it than the authors they criticise.

Perhaps you should talk to universities, exam boards, schools then. Writers are judged by their product. How else?

No denying that Jk Rowling has done some good and been incredibly successful financially.

Just wish she had left it there because some of those children grew up and continued to read her words, some of them are trans, and she broke their hearts

Oh I agree about her getting children reading. I just wonder at some of the other stuff she manages to publish. I've no objection to pot boilers I quite enjoy a bit of unchallenging writing. But I don't understand why it's wrong to criticise her.I do it with lots of other writers.

Gagajo discussing/dissecting an authors work in University and/or school is not the same as literary snobbery.

GrannyGravy13

Gagajo discussing/dissecting an authors work in University and/or school is not the same as literary snobbery.

Well, it's my bread and butter. It's not snobbery, it's wanting to be so caught up in a book (as I am with Atwood for example) that I don't notice the quality of the writing.

Novels are products, in the same way movies are. Some are good, some are bad, some are popular, some are trashy, some are flops. JKR's novels aren't flops. Doesn't make 'em literature.

Single sex spaces for men and women are protected under the Equality Act and as far as I know no one has even mentioned changing this.
publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201719/cmselect/cmwomeq/1470/147010.htm

Trisher, My criticism of her began way before her stance on trans issues by the way.
My DH wants to know what you criticised her for if you don’t read her books and your criticism was before she said sex is immutable.
I’d like to pass on your explanation, and maybe others on here would like to know as well.

Nothing like women having a pile on to another woman. In the words of Deborah Meaden; I'm out, may even go and pick up an Attwood from my book shelf. Goodnight, see some of you in the safe grounds of political threads where nobody gets slated for books they say they have enjoyed.

I would like to know what trisher and Gagajo think of the folks that enjoy her books?

Do you look down on folks who deviate from so called literary giants ?

GJ
Literature for those who misunderstand the word.
Literature is a term used to describe written and sometimes spoken material. Derived from the Latin word literature meaning "writing formed with letters," literature most commonly refers to works of the creative imagination, including poetry, drama, fiction, nonfiction, and in some instances, journalism, and song.

Mollygo

*Trisher, My criticism of her began way before her stance on trans issues by the way*.
My DH wants to know what you criticised her for if you don’t read her books and your criticism was before she said sex is immutable.
I’d like to pass on your explanation, and maybe others on here would like to know as well.

Well we have been here before, much of the HP storylines are lifted from other writers in particular Jill Murphy and the Worst Witch. I have read the HP books, one of the things primary school teachers do is read the books children do. It was sometime ago, so I'm sorry I won't be posting any details. She generaly uses cliches and over worked phrases if I remember correctly. Much like the RG book.
I really don't understand why anyone imagines her trans stance would influence or inform my attitude towards her and her writing.

GrannyGravy13

I would like to know what trisher and Gagajo think of the folks that enjoy her books?

Do you look down on folks who deviate from so called literary giants ?

No why should I? Really what is this idea that criticism is unacceptable or elitist. I love some writers like Margaret Atwood or Pat Barker, but I can read anything and often do. Some of it is rubbish and I will happily admit it is.

Jk Rowling' whole twitter feed has several times, become one giant pile on against... women...

If everyone here accepted trans women as women imagine how angry about that we would be

VioletSky

JaneJudge

That person has some concerns about how changes in sex and gender law could have consequences for women and girls

Yup women with disability who under current law can specify female only personal care

Why are people not concerned about changes that affect other vulnerable female born groups?

It isn't being transphobic it is being sensible. Safeguarding shouldn't be affected by changes to law surrounding this issue imo

Janejudge I share those concerns but safeguarding and DBS checks should apply to all. We can't imply that women are always safe in situations looking after children or vulnerable people or those rules would not exists.

We can't deny someone a job in a profession where they may see multiple clients on the basis they are trans, we don't do that on basis of their birth gender so why would we change that?

I've had male doctors examine me and male nurses attend me and male midwives present. I had to have a word with myself about it because, these are qualified people who have passed relevant checks and training and in the end, it was fine.

Now in a situation where someone is vulnerable and states their needs clearly, I'm sure that they can state they do not want a man or a trans woman and its down to the common sense of those involved to respect that, in a time of fear or vulnerability, this is what is needed.

I haven't seen any male or trans person, in any profession say it should be otherwise and I wouldn't agree with them if they did.

I am not bothered about the people in your last sentence Violetsky, I am worried about 'people' (men) abusing the law to gain access to vulnerable women for their own sexual gratification/pleasure. I know lots of people do not have to think about this but I do. My dd with a severe disability is percentage wise at MUCH higher risk of sexual abuse, any abuse and the care crisis isn't helping either

Lets not pretend people wont abuse any legislation or law

Violetsky the man who dresses as a woman is a tiny part of Troubled Blood and is hardly likely to convince anyone that every transwoman they meet has got bodies hidden under the floorboards. If you read The Silkworm she write very sympathetically about a trans woman and has Robin pull Strike up short about his typical male reaction to the girl

Janejudge I understand and I did address that in my reply

I hate that there are men who will use this to masquerade a women, I just can't discriminate against trans people going into care work for that reason. Especially as men can and do do those jobs and do them with great grace and care. I worked in care before retraining..

I think there needs to be more stringent safeguarding and checks across the board honestly as well as security that ensures people are always watched as I have heard too many stories about vulnerable people being mistreated.

Deedaa

Violetsky the man who dresses as a woman is a tiny part of Troubled Blood and is hardly likely to convince anyone that every transwoman they meet has got bodies hidden under the floorboards. If you read The Silkworm she write very sympathetically about a trans woman and has Robin pull Strike up short about his typical male reaction to the girl

Although that wasn't the main point, thank you for the information

There was a news article this week about a school in London. They were teaching the students that there were now 64 (not a typo) different genders. Absolutely ridiculous.

am not bothered about the people in your last sentence Violetsky, I am worried about 'people' (men) abusing the law to gain access to vulnerable women for their own sexual gratification/pleasure. I know lots of people do not have to think about this but I do. My dd with a severe disability is percentage wise at MUCH higher risk of sexual abuse, any abuse and the care crisis isn't helping either sad

Lets not pretend people wont abuse any legislation or law

As happened to my friend who went for an intimate exam at her surgery and was confronted by a 6ft+ person with a beard and deep voice, dressed in a nurse’s frock, who assured her they were a woman. They then tried aggressively to trap my friend in the room . It was very traumatising to an already traumatised woman and her official complaint was upheld.

JaneJudge
I am not bothered about the people in your last sentence Violetsky, I am worried about 'people' (men) abusing the law to gain access to vulnerable women for their own sexual gratification/pleasure. I know lots of people do not have to think about this but I do. My dd with a severe disability is percentage wise at MUCH higher risk of sexual abuse, any abuse and the care crisis isn't helping either sad.
Lets not pretend people wont abuse any legislation or law.
Suedonim I feel for your friend. My relative who was in a mental health ward along with other traumatised women was faced with a blatantly male man in an open gown who staff were afraid to move because he said he was a woman. Being traumatised or
My relative complained, both to the newspaper and on the radio. The case was highly publicised at the time. As my relative said, being nice-polar doesn’t mean you are thick and can be ignored.

VioletSky

Janejudge I understand and I did address that in my reply

I hate that there are men who will use this to masquerade a women, I just can't discriminate against trans people going into care work for that reason. Especially as men can and do do those jobs and do them with great grace and care. I worked in care before retraining..

I think there needs to be more stringent safeguarding and checks across the board honestly as well as security that ensures people are always watched as I have heard too many stories about vulnerable people being mistreated.

seriously, I have no problem with trans people working in care. I do have issues with people having common sense though!

WRT DBS checks all previous names/sexes need to be checked though.

Another discussion where criticism of JKR on every conceivable level is somehow central to any discussion on trans

Thanks Doodle, Far North, Mollygo and others for the patient, well informed and balanced responses here. SueDonim and JaneJudge raise significant points based on experience. None of the trans activist support posters seem able to respond to these real lived experience. The only lived experience given credence is that of trans women.