I think this will happen more and more

But it's the way you tell 'em!

Asking for it, was I?

Transwomen aren't any sort of women VS.

Here are 2 Lia Thomas pics.

Transmen arent ignored by gender critical feminists. The exact opposite.
I dont have a gender.

Agree with you BlueBelle.

It's just become so uncomfortable to discuss because it looks like this.

Newcomers to discussion showing even an ounce of trans acceptance must be immediately pounced on before their views are even stated.

Trans accepting people on these discussions must have their thoughts deliberately misunderstood and be accused of awful things like the discerning silent observer (and I have no doubt there are many) can't see through that immediately. Moderate views are also the wrong sort of views. We must use any means to shut down common sense arguments.

It's not just trans women who aren't the right sort of women.

Anyone supportive of tran women is no longer the right sort of women.

Trans men? when they are mentioned... Well we ought to ignore them except to say, they are women really... But they also go in the wrong sort of women box because, there are only right women and wrong women now. Right women, wrong women and men who cannot be trusted anyway and don't get an opinion.

Trans people have started a war by existing. Maybe they could have a little more acceptance if they would just denounce those with extreme views instead of just trying to quietly live their lives as if that's proof enough they are harmless, law-abiding citizens.

Also, we must get it all correct straight away. By this we mean, nothing can change. At all. Ever.

All trans people cannot change sex, therefor they must stay in the box they were placed in with the labels we agree with. Ie, trans women are men and trans men are (the wrong sort of) women. We have no problem how they dress and what sort of pronouns they use but we reserve the right to point at them if they don't look right and not use their pronouns when it suits us. No spaces can be created to accommodate them. All the medical terms about anatomy are strictly devided into male and female and trans people either deal with being the gender we tell them they are or don't get the help they need. As women we are defined by words, not deeds, not how we express ourselves and our gender and not individuality

Of course we do accept trans people though. That's obvious right?

Asking questions and getting clarification is not my definition of "lecturing"

But it's the way you tell 'em!

I have no problem with anyone competing in any sport that they excel at provided that the competitors are all broadly within the same age/weight/approximate height/muscle structure/bone density/metabolism range. When you have someone like McKinnon competing in the same cycle race as Orwick, it's hardly a fair race.

Of these 3 cyclists, one is a trans woman and quite obviously taller, heavier, more muscular and stronger. Which one won?

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10445679/Lia-Thomas-UPenn-teammate-says-trans-swimmer-doesnt-cover-genitals-locker-room.html

"'It's definitely awkward because Lia still has male body parts and is still attracted to women,' "

BlueBelle that’s exactly my opinion ?

Women should compete with women
Men should compete against men
Trans should have their own category in all sports
And no one taking drugs should compete at all

I am not interested in patronising you or not patronising you for that matter volver. You think it sounds like hate I dont agree.

I did all the courses. Long time ago.

. I think you are quite assertive yourself.

That about your post at 20:17

Don't patronise me Galaxy. You sound like something out of an eighties assertiveness manual.

I believe that you cant change sex. I think women have a right to sex segregated spaces under the equality act. I think the rapid rise in female to male transition is something that needs to be looked at and the detransitioners who are now appearing. No hate.

I think women saying no often appears unkind volver.

Well it comes across as hate. Not getting at you particularly. Just telling you all how it appears.

Aargh. Am cooking. That should say I have seen you be quite cross with a few people on other subjects.

No hate here. Vague irritation at times. To be fair volver I have quite cross with quite a few people in other subjects.

volver

^Your position on treatment for children^

What's my position on the treatment of children Galaxy? I haven't worked out any such thing so maybe you can help me understand what it is that I think? Tell me what my opinion is, that kind of thing?

Unexpected laugh

So its nothing to do with sex, is it? Its to do with physical attributes. Then testosterone gets in on the act. Changes everything we've talked about above, overrides sex.

Manuel is female, but in order to transition into a man who'd 'pass' Manuel will have taken and continue to take testosterone. Any female that Manuel boxed against would not be permitted to take testosterone, it being a banned drug because it builds bulk and strength artificially. It would make for an unfair advantage as well as condoning illegal drug taking in one competitor (illegal for sporting purposes, obviously not illegal for transition purposes)
A transwoman who suppresses testosterone could compete against another male with some small disadvantage to themselves. Of course their pubertal development wouldn't have changed with regard to lung capacity, bone density and length etc as outlined in my earlier post.

The answer could be that transpeople have to have two more categories developed for them. Transmen and transwomen. Then everything is as fair as we can get. Alternatively you could have a female class (no banned drugs permitted), a male class (no banned drugs permitted) and an open class, anything goes.

Galaxy

Do you think we dont know its a minefield volver. We have watched people we know being threatened for believing in biological sex.
Yes all people on here dont agree. I personally think it is about sex, but I also think other rules apply so I dont think an 18 year old should be allowed in the under 8 football team for example. Some people on here think that transwomen who have had surgery for example should be allowed in womens prisons I dont agree. I am not sure why variations in opinions are a surprise. Many people on the other 'side' of the debate believe very firmly that transwomen are women until it comes to sport or relationships for example.

Yes, I'm sure its a minefield Galaxy. I'm happy to admit that the people who are personally affected by this are having a much harder time than I am - incomparably harder.

But debates are not allowed, are they? Nobody can put their head above the parapet without one side calling "transphobe" or the other side calling ... well actually I can't think what the other side would be calling, I'm so blooming confused by the whole thing.

Each side seems to hate the other and think they're wicked and unreconstructed. Or something. Insults are the order of the day. Assumptions about what people know and don't know.

I'm off back to the international economic sanctions thread, its easier.

GrannyGravy13

Artificial hormones and drugs are banned by all professional sports bodies.

So I assume that any trans taking hormones drugs should be banned from competitions?

I can only assume that Lia is not taking any hormones/drugs to aid their transition and is only ID’ing as female in order to be No.1 as a male swimmer Lia (William) was approx 472

This is what I was going to say.

Do you think we dont know its a minefield volver. We have watched people we know being threatened for believing in biological sex.
Yes all people on here dont agree. I personally think it is about sex, but I also think other rules apply so I dont think an 18 year old should be allowed in the under 8 football team for example. Some people on here think that transwomen who have had surgery for example should be allowed in womens prisons I dont agree. I am not sure why variations in opinions are a surprise. Many people on the other 'side' of the debate believe very firmly that transwomen are women until it comes to sport or relationships for example.

This actually raises another query for me.
Can anybody send me a link to where it has been decided that it’s OK for some competitors to take drugs but not others?
I thought that only happened in Russia.