Deliberate and orchestrated silencing of trans rights supporters on GN

the 'becoming a virgin' thing is meaningless to me in this regard. QE1 was talking about a shift in her PR strategy, surely?

Yes, but historically, we don't have the wealth of info about this issues that we do now.

In the same way, Sojourner Truth's 'Ain't I a Woman' speech is used as a deconstruct of gender.

So, I still don’t know the answer to my question.
VioletSky it appears that you have accused me of being ‘dishonest’?
I’ve no idea what you’ve said on other threads regarding Intersectional Feminism as I don’t slavishly follow those threads.
I am still under the impression that you and others might be hijacking the theory.

Whitewavemark2

So the young male, who at pre-puberty is uncomfortable in his assigned gender role.

My question is, what is pushing him to try to change his gender.

Is it simply a rejection of his gender or is it something in his biology?

Now I am stuck. As I don’t know. It makes a huge difference in the answer to this as one is a preference and the other is predetermined I think.

I think the answer to that one will differ, according to the individual.

Chewbacca

I have a ceiling that you could be painting for me FannyC?

It’s a toss up between the sock drawer and the cutlery draw today I think ? ?

Oh, one more thing quickly

I think Gagajo seems to be a genuinely decent person. Nothing about her character seems questionable. I've seen other genuinely nice people put off from these threads too.

Why is it actually too much to ask that people consider why she feels as she does and perhaps commit to changes that make everyone feel welcome in these discussions?

Yes let’s go and enjoy the sun and pick this up later.

FannyCornforth

So, I still don’t know the answer to my question.
VioletSky it appears that you have accused me of being ‘dishonest’?
I’ve no idea what you’ve said on other threads regarding Intersectional Feminism as I don’t slavishly follow those threads.
I am still under the impression that you and others might be hijacking the theory.

Hang on another one, comments are just moving too fast

I have answered "what is a woman" with what it means to me many times. It's a good enough answer. It's not true that it hasn't been answered.

Have a good day all

GagaJo

Whitewavemark2

So the young male, who at pre-puberty is uncomfortable in his assigned gender role.

My question is, what is pushing him to try to change his gender.

Is it simply a rejection of his gender or is it something in his biology?

Now I am stuck. As I don’t know. It makes a huge difference in the answer to this as one is a preference and the other is predetermined I think.

I think the answer to that one will differ, according to the individual.

Just a quick reply, then I’m definitely going outside in the sun.

If it is biology than that individual will have no choice unless he chooses and struggles to ignore the biology.

If it is society then that individual does have choice providing society allows that choice.

BlueBelle

Good post Veganrock
Life is very simple for me
I don’t care what anyone wears, clothes, make up, nail varnish high heels
I don’t care who anyone has sex with
I don’t care what anyone calls themselves
But
I do not want a man competing against women in sport
I do not want a man in my toilet or my changing room or a womens refuge etc
And
A man is someone who dresses and talks and has sex however he wishes, but has male genitalia
Life in Bluebelles world is very simple

Life in my world is simple too Bluebelle.

In the same way, Sojourner Truth's 'Ain't I a Woman' speech is used as a deconstruct of gender.
That's just inferred intertextuality, though. You could equally say that Bohemian Rhapsody is about dying of AIDS, even though it can't possibly have been. You can't apply the words of another age to the politics of this one and assume that they meant the same thing. None of that is relevant to this discussion though, however academically interesting it is in other contexts.

WWM2 I think that 'society' does allow people to choose which gender norms to follow. I appreciate that it won't be as easy for a bloke from a housing estate to wear a dress as it is for Grayson Perry, but men are not stuck with wearing ties on the beach any more. It's not at all unusual for men to 'be in touch with their feminine side' and not to be pilloried for it. Women provide for families and drink pints. And so on.

They may seem like trivial examples, but I am struggling to find more profound ones. What do men want to do that they can't unless they 'become' women? Apart from compete in women's sports and have access to women's spaces, that is.

There are strict categories in para sport, there are different weights in boxing, you do not have 10yr olds running races, swimming agains 16yr olds.

These rules are there for a reason, to make sport a level playing field for those who take part.

I do not want to see men who ID as women competing against women, it will destroy womens sport.

A swimmer ranked 462 in male swimming, decides to ID as a women and after a few races is No.1 in female swimming,

Female sport should not be open to failed Male athletes.

Doodledog

*In the same way, Sojourner Truth's 'Ain't I a Woman' speech is used as a deconstruct of gender.*
That's just inferred intertextuality, though. You could equally say that Bohemian Rhapsody is about dying of AIDS, even though it can't possibly have been. You can't apply the words of another age to the politics of this one and assume that they meant the same thing. None of that is relevant to this discussion though, however academically interesting it is in other contexts.

WWM2 I think that 'society' does allow people to choose which gender norms to follow. I appreciate that it won't be as easy for a bloke from a housing estate to wear a dress as it is for Grayson Perry, but men are not stuck with wearing ties on the beach any more. It's not at all unusual for men to 'be in touch with their feminine side' and not to be pilloried for it. Women provide for families and drink pints. And so on.

They may seem like trivial examples, but I am struggling to find more profound ones. What do men want to do that they can't unless they 'become' women? Apart from compete in women's sports and have access to women's spaces, that is.

Just nipped in. Can’t let this go today?.

No I’m talking about society at different periods in its history. Or indeed in different countries.

So in Islamic countries I suspect the penalty for dressing as a woman if you are a man if pretty severe. And likewise in different periods of history.

Culture changes over time and societal norms are reflective or are indeed cultural.

That is what social historians do. They take imperfect texts and sift the information available.

There are very few historical texts that offer a complete account of what it meant to be trans, before trans was a recognised category and word.

Academics such as Alan Sinfield studied non-conformative gender representations from groups such as Molly Boys, who we would probably now define as gay male prostitutes.

It's part of the patchwork of understanding we have.

Time for my poster again before I head outside.

This article written by a friend of mine says it far better than I ever could.

My friend is a transwoman.

www.spectator.co.uk/article/at-least-boris-johnson-knows-the-difference-between-men-and-women

Agreed, GG13.

And the same applies to men wanting to muscle in on women's poetry events, or museums of the vagina. There is little enough that is done by women for women - most things are nod 'gendered' as there is no need - but when there is, there is aways a man wanting to make it for them, too. If we were talking about a poet who 'lived as a woman' in all aspects of their life, I wouldn't object, but when it's a man with a beard who talks about his 'dick', I can't help but see it as a political move to take space from women.

It is all very well for you lot, but I’m still stuck on the question

Is it gender or sex?

WWM2 I honestly think we are saying the same thing as one another.

Gender is the construct - sex is the biology, so it depends on what 'it' is .

Doodledog

WWM2 I honestly think we are saying the same thing as one another.

Yes we are. But where we differ is how far along the argument we are. I’m still stuck at base camp 1.

Look the sun beckons. Must just dash out and tie in the ramping clematis and plant some seedling primroses for next year.

Whitewavemark2

It is all very well for you lot, but I’m still stuck on the question

Is it gender or sex?

I'm sure it is both. For some, it is their biology. For some, it is their gender representation.

Some are more concerned with living as their desired gender. Some are desperate for medical intervention.

I think your posts have been very fair WW, whichever 'camp' you are in.

I love this. It says the truth so well it needs reiterating. Thank you Rosie51.