Deliberate and orchestrated silencing of trans rights supporters on GN

I have to say, I haven't seen anything that struck me as "deliberate and orchestrated silencing of trans rights supporters" on the site - just people giving their opinions of it, and those opinions have seemed to me to be equally strongly expressed by those on both sides of the argument.

Galaxy

I think your posts have been very fair WW, whichever 'camp' you are in.

I concur. All in all, a really good discussion and a pleasure to take part!

No one is getting me to go camping mind, I have my limits.

Whitewavemark2
It is all very well for you lot, but I’m still stuck on the question

Is it gender or sex?
Gender is a social construct and can be changed at whim as has been shown on here.
Sex is immutable and cannot be changed.

Some trans are more concerned with living as their desired gender. Some are desperate for medical intervention.
Most educated people, whether trans or not realise that medical intervention does not change your sex.

Oldnproud

I have to say, I haven't seen anything that struck me as "deliberate and orchestrated silencing of trans rights supporters" on the site - just people giving their opinions of it, and those opinions have seemed to me to be equally strongly expressed by those on both sides of the argument.

Thank you, Oldnproud.

I do get sick of the 'GCs' being cast as oppressive silencers. It's not fair, not true, and it's good to see that recognised.

Totally confused over this issue.
What’s the difference between trans people ( who literally change sex over a number of years and operations ) and people who identify as a man/,woman but have, & never will have, the operation?
How can a man say he wants to be accepted as a woman just because he feels like one on any particular day? It’s like something out of Monty Python. But essentially harmless, as long as he doesn’t have the right to be sent to a woman’s prison for example.

From reading mumsnet I know a lot of feminists feel politically lost, as they traditionally vote Labour but feel the Labour Party been totally betrayed them over women’s rights.
They’re actually agreeing with Boris!
Feminists have traditionally fought for the rights of every minority under the sun, so now their fight has literally bitten them on the bum ( with massive teeth ) it’s very difficult for them.
On paper, feminists shouldn’t have a problem with any minority wanting equal rights. But they have with this.

Let’s assume that at the moment there is no answer to the question about whether a person wanting to change his gender is driven by society/culture or a biological difference that scientists have not yet established. Which I think is more or less where we are at.

My next question is and this is what I think is driving the arguments on this thread and the other one is.

Do those who are undergoing sexual transition have a right to be treated the same as every other individual of the gender to which they have transitioned in society?

Now this is where my ignorance is clear here.

Are there individuals who remain the same birth sex, but who wish to be treated as the opposite gender? Do they have the same rights as society treats men or women or both. I’m not talking about fundamental rights but the sort of rights that cause a massive argument.

This is where it seems the difficulty lies if there are such individuals.

And of course we have the additional question of - if an individual is born say female but at puberty the body is flooded with testosterone for some reason giving her the physique of a male, how do we deal with this in say sport?

Or even are these the right questions.?

Mollygo

Whitewavemark2
It is all very well for you lot, but I’m still stuck on the question

Is it gender or sex?
Gender is a social construct and can be changed at whim as has been shown on here.
Sex is immutable and cannot be changed.

Some trans are more concerned with living as their desired gender. Some are desperate for medical intervention.
Most educated people, whether trans or not realise that medical intervention does not change your sex.

? yes I actually addressed that issue early on I’m ahead of that now.

The question I’m stuck on the question of what ‘pushes’ someone to transition from one sex to another is societal/cultural based or biological.

And yes, I agree (at the moment) that the sex you are born with is immutable.

I don't think that it is essential harmless to have men identifying as women when they want to be part of something that was set up by women for women, though.

It doesn't have to be about physical danger - it can be 'just' stopping women from having anything of our own. A celebration of women in poetry, or a vagina museum are just two recent examples that have been discussed on here. I have no real interest in a vagina museum, but can see that transwomen using it to celebrate their 'womanhood' on International Women's Day is nothing short of an insult.

In day to day life I try not to treat men and wonen differently so am not sure how I can treat someone as the opposite gender. In terms of spaces such as refuges etc I think these should be segregated by sex. I dont see how you can segregate them by gender as that means differwnt things to different peopke.

At the moment I actually think that feminism has nothing to do with it,

Bear with?

It is about the accepted rights of an individual regardless be they men or women. Note I don’t use the term male or female as biological sex has no ‘rights’.

Am not sure what you mean sex is a protected characteristic.

So then now to the nitty gritty and which may get me into hot water.

I will start with the premise that an individual has a right to live without fear or hindrance in their every day life.

(Blimey we have a long way to go to that ideal I think)

That will include everyone.

So those transitioning should be able to live without prejudice.

Those who want to live the role of women but remain as physical men have a right to do so without prejudice.

Those who choose to neither transition nor change their gender roll have a right to do so without hinderance or prejudice.

And everyone in between.

So the massive arguments then centres on what women and feminists (don’t forget the young can teach us nothing about feminism as we invented it, although I accept the arguments have moved on) see as the men adopting the women’s role and impinging into the space women have carved out for themselves over the decades, and still not always achieved.

I’m not saying at this stage I agree or disagree with this.

* On paper, feminists shouldn’t have a problem with any minority wanting equal rights. But they have with this.*

I think it’s because usually, granting rights doesn’t mean taking rights away from others.
Some basic examples
Fact-Giving girls the right to play football in female teams, wasn’t detrimental to boys and didn’t stop boys playing football or interfere with all male teams.

Fact- Giving gays the right to be gay without the persecution prevalent in the last century, wasn’t detrimental and didn’t take anything away from males.
In my Opinion- Jamaica claiming the right to be a republic, is not detrimental to the UK or takes away any UK rights.

Now the rights being demanded by a few are detrimental to others.

Giving any males, the right to compete in female sports is detrimental to females chances of winning.

Giving any males the right to be in safe spaces for vulnerable females, who have been traumatised by abuse by males is detrimental to females and does take away the rights of females.

These two examples apply whether the gender a male has chosen is to be a man or to be a transwoman.

Whitewave (and others ,but you are the one who said this most clearly), I think the argument that gender is 'assigned' at birth is simplistic.
From general observation it seems to me that under-fives of both sexes play with cars or dolls indiscriminately. Perceptions of difference and a sense of being a boy or girl kick in at primary school and are very strong at the ages of about 6-8. So strong that I believe they are innate (i.e biological) and not induced by adult expectations.

Galaxy

Am not sure what you mean sex is a protected characteristic.

No what I’m saying is that gender is a societal construct .

You learn how to behave as a man or woman.

Sex just is - it is immutable.

So I was born female with all the biological accoutrements.

My rights are assigned to me as an individual (female) not to my arms, legs, heart and uterus.

Well your sex which is present in your whole body impacts on your rights. In the way disability or race can impact on your rights. I agree that gender is a social consruct but my view is we should be challenging that social construct rather than entrenching it.

winterwhite

Whitewave (and others ,but you are the one who said this most clearly), I think the argument that gender is 'assigned' at birth is simplistic.
From general observation it seems to me that under-fives of both sexes play with cars or dolls indiscriminately. Perceptions of difference and a sense of being a boy or girl kick in at primary school and are very strong at the ages of about 6-8. So strong that I believe they are innate (i.e biological) and not induced by adult expectations.

Yes they do and left entirely without culture children would be as you suggest, but they don’t live without culture.

Of course this has been recognised and the feminist argument has done a lot to encourage gender neutral environments but it is an enormous battle that they are very far from winning.

With regard to biological maturity that is absolutely right, but and this is the big but whilst reaction to the opposite sex is innate, their rolls as boys/girls, men/women are learned.

There is of course innate behaviour and this is where the ‘elephant’ strides into the room disguised as hormones.

This is what feeds into the argument over men/women space.

Galaxy

Well your sex which is present in your whole body impacts on your rights. In the way disability or race can impact on your rights. I agree that gender is a social consruct but my view is we should be challenging that social construct rather than entrenching it.

Oh I absolutely agree. It is the only thing we can challenge. We can’t challenge our sex, physical or mental disabilities, or race, amongst other things - they just are.

I've been turfed out of the garden by the unexpected early arrival of flat pack furniture that I haven't made space for yet.

So I need a little more procrastination before dealing with it.

Honestly I feel that trans people's rights are now being protected.

The rights women feel they are losing are all coming from organisations and businesses that are trying to impliment that protection of trans peoples rights.

Some organisations and businesses are getting it right and some are getting it wrong.

Eventually everyone will get it right but in the meantime the discussion needs to be about those instances individually not about whether or not we agree trans people should have those rights or whether we believe trans people are deliberately trying to take our rights away on every thread.

Because simply they have always had rights and all that has changed is that level of protection that has been inplimented due to the desire of some to not respect their rights.

Just as well call the Sun the Moon, but what is the point?
There are no conversations to be had , if some refuse to accept historical descriptive words.

Got to stop getting burnt in the sun and this needs re-charging.

I do read the threads on this issue but have not commented previously as I lack sufficient knowledge of the subject. I do however feel quite strongly that there is no evidence of deliberate and orchestrated silencing of supporters of trans rights on any of the threads, I have only seen fair but robust discussion.
My opinion on the subject, for what it’s worth, is that any living person has a right to identify as male, female or other as they feel appropriate to them. Choose the pronoun they wish to use and be shown respect and understanding. Except with regard to the safety of others, so that any person with male genitalia should not be admitted to female hospital wards, female prisons, female changing rooms, female toilets and most particularly a refuge for abused women. That is not to say that all trans women are dangerous but that the majority of natal women must be protected from the minority who might be abusing the system.
The only other exception should be sports competition in the interests of fairness and equality.

GagaJo

Equality with whom? - Equality. With other humans. Treated equally. Equal rights to healthcare, employment, essential services.

Established by what means? - Legally and in society.

These are core tenets of feminist. And this is why, as an intersectional feminist, I believe these should be extended these to all.

Thank you GagaJo, but I still don't understand. What does Equality. With other humans. Treated equally mean?
Its a bit vague, so if you could explain more clearly.

Do trans not have access to medical treatment? That's appalling. I thought they could just go to the docs like anyone else.

What essential services don't they get? Transport? Hospital care? Education? Bus passes?

What do you mean by established legally?
Who has said that a transman doesn't have the right to be or be called a transman or a transwoman the right to be or be called a transwoman.

Are you saying they aren't allowed to do that? Its not in any of the reading material I've looked at.